Where is this power coming from?

[william runkle]

Seen something new, this cottage has a new 5 inch plastic well put in 2 weeks ago, this well feeds the cottage with 1 inch black plastic pipe to the tank that is installed in crawl space that is open on piers. There are two water hydrants in the line from well to tank, one by well about 2 feet away from casing, the other about 4 feet from tank. Here is the problem there is 80 volts from tank pressure switch to hydrant, so I thought must have circuit going to water grounding out so removed all fuses including the main and no different still at 80 volts, so thought it might be coming in on the neautral line from utility so I disconnected the service coming in all three conductors completely unhooked, and still 80 volts. So I unhooked the pump and pressure switch which is connected with 12-2 with ground U.F.-B and checked the black to ground and read 17 volts also the same with white to ground on both ends of the U.F.-B and still 80 volts tank to hydrant. Any ideas?

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Where is this power coming from?

What's in the scenery? Is there another house sharing the well? Is there a solar system? Did you shut off all the circuit breakers in the house, to verify that power wasn't backfeeding?

Describe your symptoms more, this sounds like a doozy.

 

[william runkle]

Re: Where is this power coming from?

This is a cottage on a small lake that was part of a resort approximately 4 other units were there a one time sharing a common well that has been disconnected from this cottage, the reason for the new well, the ground is made up of gravel under about 6 inches of top soil. As originally posted I disconnected power from the electric co-op power to the cottage, and was getting readings of 80 volts from water tank to hydrant, and then completely disconect the pressure switch and at the well which is fed with 12-2 with ground U.F.-B installed wiyh the new well 2 weeks ago. I am thinking it might come from neighboring house about 100 yards away but noone else has a complaint. About a quarter mile away is the co-op substation, it is a possibility. But before I call the utility in on this problem I want to make sure I have checked everything possible. That is why I posted here. Thank-you for all the help.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Where is this power coming from?

Bear with me, I'm trying to get a mental picture of this.

Why is there a hydrant under the house 4' away from the pressure tank? Is it just a metallic hose bib attached to the black plastic line?

Is your well pump bonded to the casing, and is this wire intact back to the panel? In general, this seems important to me, because you're talking about two items very close together. Does it arc if you touch a wire between the two points? If you could short it out (if nobody's taking a shower) and get an ampclamp on it, it'd be interesting to see if there is any current, or what.

With the fuses out of the main disconnect, are there zero amps at the POCO meter, it stops turning completely? Is it possible somebody is stealing some juice from the line side of the meter, or between the meter and the disconnect?

The well's source does come from this house, right? Wow, that's weird.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Where is this power coming from?

Are you using a digital meter? If so, have you tried an analog meter?

This could be a stray voltage with no ability to drive current (i.e., high internal resistance - possibly caused by induction from a nearby power line). What I mean is that if you were to find a way to connect a light bulb across this apparent voltage source, you would see no illumination. Similarly, if you were to touch this voltage (not recommended, until you are sure of its source), it might not have enough strength for you to receive a shock. The clue for me is that there were no other complaints. That may be because it is not a shock hazard.

 

[karl riley]

Re: Where is this power coming from?

Just one thought to add. You said other houses had disconnected from the well. When lines are disconnected sometimes they leave the neutral still connected.

Karl

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Where is this power coming from?

Originally posted by charlie b:
The clue for me is that there were no other complaints.

A similar question occured to me on the way to work this morning. What prompted you or someone else to notice this stray voltage? What was the event?

 

[william runkle]

Re: Where is this power coming from?

Thank-you for all input on this I will try to answer all questions trying last to first. I recieved a call from the new owner of this old resort cottage on a small lake on Saturday afternoon to ground his house and give an estimate for new service since all the small cottages are connected to one central meter using C.T. doughnuts on the pole. When I got to the location the owner told me he was getting a shock from as you call hose bib just outside the house and the water tank shut off valve under the crawl space all which is exposed. I completely disconnect from the electric co-op leads coming to this cottage no voltage from power company and have 80 volts still present so for safety as the home owner went earlier in the day and purchased a 1/2 inch 8 foot copper ground rod, so I installed the rod 8 feet away from tank and in line with hydrant which is appoximately 8 feet long and 3/4 inches diameter galvanized pipe with a draining ghut off valve so it will not freeze and break in the winter cold. So with number 4 copper that is some scrap I had on the truck I bond the hydrant to the tank and the rod with 1/2 to 1 inch cast ground clamps not approve for outside but it does work for tempary. Then put amprobe onto the #4 and read 5.8 amps, so tried disconnnecting the ground at the tank and tried the spark test cover light with a gloved hand and could see a faint spark and figured it matched the voltage and amperage with the daylight we still had. As for bonding the well casing the casiing is 5 inch plastic with a plastic point so that is impossible to bond to the pump is stainless steel one horsepower 240 volts single phase uses to hot wires and the green ground wire all insulated for the well water and all the wires are 12 guage. So I could bond the hydrant by the well to the pump ground and drive another rod But before doing all that I would like to find out what is the cause here. Then on Monday went to the Well Driller to see personaly about this and he told me they were getting shocked when installing the tank. They didn't say why they finished it but they did and two weeks later Iget this call for a need to ground the system. I hope I answered all the questions that you can now give me some ideas. Thanks again.

 

[william runkle]

Re: Where is this power coming from?

Yes I used digital metering and I did recieve shock when touching valve and kneeling on the ground with double front pants I recieved a good jolt and went to get the gloves on. Hope this helps as I want to explore all possibilities before calling in the power company.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Where is this power coming from?

Where is the old original pump getting it's power from? I'm thinking Karl is on the right track, that perhaps it's related to that old system.

Was the old piping copper? I'm having a hard time imagining straight water effectively conducting 480 watts through plastic pipe.

 

[william runkle]

Re: Where is this power coming from?

The water pump came from the main house located 100 yards south of this cottage and is still being used for the main house water supply. all feeds to the cottages were redone quite a few years ago in black plastic pipe. I believe if it was with the main water pump the power should be disipated by the time it reaches the cottage, For example 120 volts to ground if was on metal piping should be 0 volts in 300 feet but it is plastic. This resort has been sold last year and subdivided the cottages out to make a good bit of money on the deal so the new owners of the cottages are responsible for supplying their own water source and new electrical service, which I will begin next week. But here is a theroy I have and it will be hard to prove for it would mean the main house will let me go in there and find the problem which would cost them and I am sure they would rebuke the idea, but if the POCO tells them they are liable then they would be forced to fix it. So I really all input possible other solutions to this problem to make sure when I call in POCO I am confident. Well here is my theroy I know from past experience that the main house has a service panel that has a reputation of the aluminum neautral lug oxidizing to a point of insulating from the neautral bar thus forcing the unbalance of the to hot legs to return to ground thru the E.G.C. which is possibly hooked up to the well casing and possible the well is the same depth as the new well and the vein of water is bringing it together with possible 40 volts drop. Again it is just a theroy and if anyone has a different one please feel free to suggest. As it will probably take some disconnection of power from POCO to prove it. Another idea the substation could they be grounding out to the aquaduct and this is the voltage that is left? Remember these are guesses no accusition to anyone. I will read all replies thank-you again.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Where is this power coming from?

Originally posted by william runkle: (original post)
So I unhooked the pump and pressure switch which is connected with 12-2 with ground U.F.-B and checked the black to ground and read 17 volts also the same with white to ground on both ends of the U.F.-B and still 80 volts tank to hydrant. Any ideas?

There is a fish in the bottom of the well, messing with you. With the pump disconnected, you get 17V Black to Ground, and 17V White to Ground? Do you get a voltage Black to White? Edit: The EGC is still tied together at this point, right?

Not that I have a freakin' clue about this. I think your underwater stream is about the best guess. But it's still nuts.

[ May 19, 2005, 12:11 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[scott thompson]

Re: Where is this power coming from?

I would imagine this whole thing is a result of a very poor "Neutral" Conductor Termination, to the Center Tap point at the PoCo Transformer, and at least one very poor Termination of Service Feeder's Grounded Neutral Conductor at a Customer's location (Service Panel).

I bet there are quite a few Services off this PoCo Transformer, with almost non-existent Neutral Conductor Terminations for the Service Feeder.

Other Services still connecting to Cold Water lines - somehow (most likely from bonded interior metallic pipes), and imbalanced Current is flowing within the Water itself, or catching some other metallic path between this Cottage and any of the other Cottages.

This, along with a "Still Ground Bonded Neutral Feeder" at your Client's Cottage, would explain why you were shocked at the hose bib.

Otherwise, the area is Posessed by Electro-Demons!


Scott

 

[william runkle]

Re: Where is this power coming from?

Scott I agree with what you are saying except my clients house I have disconnected the grounded neautral bond when I disconnect the electric co-op service and still have the 80 volts at the hose bib and tank before I temporary bonded the two to a ground rod. It could be at the distribution pole, but how is it getting into the water. Again I have looked over and over this situation and can not see it yet to be confident to say what it is to call in the Co-Op which by the way is Midwest Energy formerly called Fruit Belt Electric Co-Op also I am a sub-contractor for them on their Load Management Controls and do repairs on the members electric water heaters and electrical thermal storages. So I don't have a problem talking with them I just want to be sure and have all possibilities attempted before hand. Any other ideas are appreciated, thanks.

 

[william runkle]

Re: Where is this power coming from?

George on the 12-2 with grond U.F.-B I have unhooked the black and white and ground at both the pressure switch and the submergible pump and made sure bt the wires stiffness they don't touch any thing or them selves, I get 0 volts black to white and 17 volts black to ground and 17 volts white to grounds it starts to give me a theroy and I can't prove if the U.F. was installed with the black plastic pipe in a spiral could I possibly have a transformer in the trench the water in the plastic pipe is electrified and insulted from the U.F. lower the voltage to 17 volts ground to black or white? Again it is speculation on my part but please keep giving suggestions as for next week when I pick up the meter socket I will try to show them that something somewhere is wrong. Thank-you again.

 

[william runkle]

Re: Where is this power coming from?

Latest on this development last week the electric co-op was ordered by the owner of main house to disconnect all the small cottages from his metering {this owner is a real jerk] and so without any notice the power was curtailed the customer I am working for lost all in his refrigerator since he is staying in Chicago and didn't know what happen. So today I decided to check it all over again and had voltage identical as before so I thought I would drain the tank and possibly the line from pump to tank so I pulled the fuses thinking the power was hooked up and drain it until no water came out, then again unhooked the U.F. to pump and pressure switch and still get 17 to 21 volts from the black or white to the bare conductor on either end, then decided to energize the pump and fill up the system but it wouldn't run checked it with my Fluke Volt Alert 1AC-A for 90 to 600 volts and it lit at the pressure switch and both sides of the disconnect and on the top side of the service panel so now go back and with digital volt meter rang the pressure switch and it showed 0 volts so went to the service and found it rang 0 volts then up at power drop and 0 volts. Called in line crew and was told about the shut off last week so I told him about this voltage and showed him the U.F. and with his voltage meter registered 20 volts. Then gave him the scenerio of children and even adults engaging in water balloon fights with a special adapter hooked to the hydrant and the ground getting saturated with water and 80 volts bare footed person touching hydrant and standing on wet ground question whom is liable since you an employee of the electric co-op has this knowledge? So he decided to check out transformer and reground primary ground to secondary ground no change and reclamp secondary tri-plex ground to transformer ground no change disconnect the house and guess what the stray voltage went away rehooked the house and the stray voltage came back. Had him give me amp readings of tri-plex leg A 16 amps Leg B 7 amps neautral 3 amps I told him I am missimg 6 amps where are they? He said he didn't know I told him their in the water aquaduct. He said it is beyond his knowledge and will have an enginneer get a hold of me tomorrow. I am now thinking my theroy of the poor neautral connection in the house is the culprit had in my four different services do that to me this is probably the fifth. If anyone has ever had that happen on a panel please reply. Thank-you.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Where is this power coming from?

Originally posted by scott thompson:
I would imagine this whole thing is a result of a very poor "Neutral" Conductor Termination, to the Center Tap point at the PoCo Transformer, and at least one very poor Termination of Service Feeder's Grounded Neutral Conductor at a Customer's location (Service Panel).

Well, I guess that means I'm gonna have to buy the beer

 

[aelectricalman]

Re: Where is this power coming from?

Hi Scott. Its nice to meet you. I have never seen you here before.

 

[william runkle]

Re: Where is this power coming from?

Today the Engineer from Midwest Energy Co-Op was here and this is a first for him. Went thru everything and completely unhooked the neautral from the house and disconnected the ground and eliminated the main fuses and at the servicepanel with no power coming to this house he was reading out 54 volts on incoming legs to ground drove an auxillary ground outside and piked up 35 volts from auxillary to house ground. No explanation he thought the pump from main house was feeding this lucky it is outside with two wires exposed and nothing showing up on my Fluke Volt Alert then I explained if it was the pump it would be intermittent voltage only when the pump is on the break of the contacts of the pressure switch would be acting like a breaker when in off position, he agreed on this theroy and has left a meesage with main house owner he has a serious problem that needs to be address pronto so far haven't heard back as yet. Question for Charlie who or whom is responsible if someone gets electrocuted? Another question to all has anyone had a panel lose the neautral connection and run everything unbalanced on the E.G.C. ? My figuring if correct the main house would lose the E.G.C. connection at the panel all 120 volt circuits will become ewnegize to 240 volts and if the main is tripped or thrown in time al electronics will be lost and possibly the house up in flames. All replies are greatly appreciated thank-you.

 

[DCox]

Re: Where is this power coming from?

This may seem very silly but I can?t be completely sure without looking myself, but have you removed the capacitor from the pump box if one is present. Not that I have ever seen it happen myself, but the bleeding may be as simple as a short or improper neutral in this area rather than else ware, although it hardly ever is. Not knowing how much voltage this capacitor can carry (but it can be quite a bit and can discharge quickly as well). Although I don't see something like this creating as much as you were reading the other day espesially if the power had been off for a while, on the hot leg I can see due to the fact that there would be no where else for it to go. I know you discussed this area with the co-op, whether or not this particular idea came up or not. Just a thought and I hope it helps.

[ June 13, 2005, 03:50 AM: Message edited by: DCox ]