Where's the reaction?

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joesparky

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The 2008 NEC will require all circuits in residential dwellings to be arc fault protected. Personally I think this is a good idea and I felt it was inevitable. However, I think this may be rushing it. Arc faults have only been on bedroom circuits for 4 yrs now and bedroom circuits are relatively benign compared to dishwashers, furnaces, evaporative coolers, etc.

Also, there is going to be a big jump in costs of wiring new homes. With arc faults still at $30.+ and the additional wiring (no shared neutrals), and most new houses having about 30 single pole circuits, it will make a difference.

With service changes on existing houses be required to be arc faults? This could be huge too as many probably have wiring problems that will be hard to find (if they can be found at all) and have to be corrected to be on arc fault.
Joe
 
Maybe real electricians will be in demand. Then maybe the plumber and cement guy along with the HO/GC wont be able to wire a house on the weekend.

I once got a call from a "GC" who asked me if I could cover just such a situation. NO!
 
I can't see why the CMP wants to make the consumer pay for the R&D costs to complete the developement of this product. There is not at this time a product on the market that can do what the AFCI manufacturers said it could do in the original proposal for this product some 13 years ago. The whole house proposal only passed by one vote at the proposal stage so it is very possible that it will be rejected at the comment stage. Also, at this time there is not a product that meets the 1/1/08 requirements available. If there is not one, or even if there is a single brand that meets the "combination device" requirement as of 1/1/08, the section will become void. The code cannot require the installation of a product that does not exist or a product that is only available from a single supplier.
Don
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
I can't see why the CMP wants to make the consumer pay for the R&D costs to complete the developement of this product. There is not at this time a product on the market that can do what the AFCI manufacturers said it could do in the original proposal for this product some 13 years ago. The whole house proposal only passed by one vote at the proposal stage so it is very possible that it will be rejected at the comment stage. Also, at this time there is not a product that meets the 1/1/08 requirements available. If there is not one, or even if there is a single brand that meets the "combination device" requirement as of 1/1/08, the section will become void. The code cannot require the installation of a product that does not exist or a product that is only available from a single supplier.
Don
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The "concept" if delivered would be the "darling" product to put an end to the ever troubling saftey issues that behoove us all.

As to cost, well you got a point. But to the ones that have the most the fastest, there could be rewards.

I think that may be the problem anyway. If you step up and make it. A CMP will take it away in a code cycle or two.

Just from an EC's point of view, the CMP's are killing are industry/economy.

Like our Congress, their passing alot of pork that as you say, who has to pay for it. But AHJ's and Building Departments are all in the mix because of the "L"
word.

Liability. I do not see anything on the horizon that is going to curb this trend.
 
joesparky said:
The 2008 NEC will require all circuits in residential dwellings to be arc fault protected. Personally I think this is a good idea and I felt it was inevitable. However, I think this may be rushing it. Arc faults have only been on bedroom circuits for 4 yrs now and bedroom circuits are relatively benign compared to dishwashers, furnaces, evaporative coolers, etc.

Also, there is going to be a big jump in costs of wiring new homes. With arc faults still at $30.+ and the additional wiring (no shared neutrals), and most new houses having about 30 single pole circuits, it will make a difference.

With service changes on existing houses be required to be arc faults? This could be huge too as many probably have wiring problems that will be hard to find (if they can be found at all) and have to be corrected to be on arc fault.
Joe
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The jurisdictions I've been working don't require me to arc-fault at a service change.
 
Tha "almighty dollar" and the lust for it will be (and is becoming) the damnation of this country (and a lot of others).
I'm just a average guy, a pretty good electrician (IMO), and not looking to rip anyone off. Good work (as best as I can) for a fair price, every time.
What ever happened to "you get what you pay for"?
IMO...This Arc fault stuff in the 08 is a lot of crap, most people know it, and yet, it may become fact because of greed.
Does anyone really believe it's gonna be worth the cost to the consumer?
Yea ...I can hear it already...."If it saves just one life"....gimme a break.
My Sermon for the day.
steve
 
hillbilly said:
Tha "almighty dollar" and the lust for it will be (and is becoming) the damnation of this country (and a lot of others).
I'm just a average guy, a pretty good electrician (IMO), and not looking to rip anyone off. Good work (as best as I can) for a fair price, every time.
What ever happened to "you get what you pay for"?
IMO...This Arc fault stuff in the 08 is a lot of crap, most people know it, and yet, it may become fact because of greed.
Does anyone really believe it's gonna be worth the cost to the consumer?
Yea ...I can hear it already...."If it saves just one life"....gimme a break.
My Sermon for the day.
steve
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Well, lets rant.

Remember, who sold out first? Your wholesaler. Long before Lowes and HD took over. AND the big SQD now dominates. I have a local SH locally owned and I frequent them.

Back in the day, we electricians "sold" everything right down to the "fixtures", oh excuse me, I mean luminare. My father was an EC also and when the SH's started the trend of selling to GC's, well it damn well "changed" his life for the worse.

I went thru the same thing when my Suppliers hung a shingle on their doors saying, "All welcome" I ripped them for it and warned them that there would be a ramifications.

At that time I had no idea that in the not to distant future there would be a wave of DIY stores. Lowes HD, Builders Square, Handy Man, Menards etc.

That was the end of the wholersaler. Ironic. Now most contractors including me do a "boat load" of business with these "chains" I do give a portion to a local supply house.

The rest can be had "direct" Rudd, RT, etc, on and on are the choices. One large firm in my area that I "sub" into buys truck loads of wire and fixtures and 3M among other materials/parts from the OEM/Distributer.

Now, that is what I call "payback"

HEY! Ive got a game to watch coming up. Michigan State vs Michigan. Do you believe I had a kid that went to both.?" Yes I know MSU will get there asses kicked in the BH. I spent many seasons at Lansing watching MSU and a few at Ann Arbor.

Im still a GO GREEN EC. go figure. I shouldnt have "relayed" that. Let the insults begin. Probably "Larry from MI" would start if he reads this. Its a great rivalry.
 
Gmack said:
This thread is about reaction.

Do you have a rant? Lets hear it.
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My rant would be about people who rant about how bad codes, inspections, permits and other rules are but do nothing to change any of them.:D
 
iwire said:
My rant would be about people who rant about how bad codes, inspections, permits and other rules are but do nothing to change any of them.:D
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Well, thats a start, but it might serve a purpose if you elaborate more. What and who exactly could accomplish what you espouse. How?
 
Gmack said:
Well, thats a start, but it might serve a purpose if you elaborate more. What and who exactly could accomplish what you espouse. How?
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With the NEC you put in a proposal for a change.

With your local building codes and permitting rules you would have to lobby your local politicians.

Will it accomplish anything?

Who knows.

But just complaining about the rules on an Internet forum ain't gonna change nothn' :D

I have been reading the NEC report on proposals (almost 1000 pages, yeah I got time on my hands) and it is really cool to see so many names in theses proposals that I see from here and other forums.

I will admit I did not put any proposals in but at the same time I doubt you can find a post on this forum complaining about any particular code section.
 
hillbilly said:
Yea ...I can hear it already...."If it saves just one life"....gimme a break.
My Sermon for the day.
steve
Click to expand...

What ever happened to natural selection!? It's already getting too crowded, which makes traffic a bear and prices skyrocket. Leaving some inherent dangers in place in not a bad idea.
 
iwire said:
With the NEC you put in a proposal for a change.

With your local building codes and permitting rules you would have to lobby your local politicians.

Will it accomplish anything?

Who knows.

But just complaining about the rules on an Internet forum ain't gonna change nothn' :D

I have been reading the NEC report on proposals (almost 1000 pages, yeah I got time on my hands) and it is really cool to see so many names in theses proposals that I see from here and other forums.

I will admit I did not put any proposals in but at the same time I doubt you can find a post on this forum complaining about any particular code section.
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Iwire, your leaning on enforcement blindly. No complaints? How can you asess 1000 pages and they dont trigger "one" complaint. Past, present or future.

Others on this forum, I wont mention names have complained or debated the where with all of numerous NEC articles and or exceptions to them.

Its what we do as EC's, electricians, EI's.

I disagree with you that its meaningless to engage in debate or "bitching" here on this forum.

It relates to present real time "right now" NEC issues in our industry/trade that are presentlly causing "logistcal" problems for EC's/electricians. And those that are coming up.

As you said,

"I have been reading the NEC report on proposals (almost 1000 pages, yeah I got time on my hands) and it is really cool to see so many names in theses proposals that I see from here and other forums."

Why waste time down at city hall. Most of us dont have the time you do.

Do some good with it.

Look at the US tax code. Is more better or is smarter better. A ever thickening of our NEC is not neccessarily a good thing.

There has always been a disconnect AHJ and EC'S.

But CMP's are like our Congress. Maybe someone on this forum will take note.

So you see, Iwire, I do more than just complain.
 
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crankshaft said:
i heard square D pushed big time on this as they will be the only ones currently making this product
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That's it, blame it all on the French. ;)
 
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