Where's the reaction?

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Gmack said:
. No complaints? How can you asess 1000 pages and they dont trigger "one" complaint. Past, present or future.
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Who said I don't have complaints?

What I try not to do is complain about issues I have not made an effort to change.

Now, Don, George, Byran, Ryan, Mike, George and many others have put in many proposals to change the NEC, those folks have earned the right to complain, I have not.

I disagree with you that its meaningless to engage in debate or "xxxxxx" here on this forum.

It relates to present real time "right now" NEC issues in our industry/trade that are presently causing "logistcal" problems for EC's/electricians. And those that are coming up.
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How does that accomplish anything?

Simply complaining AFCIs don't work and we should not need them changes nothing. On the other hand Don has actively companied against them.
 
My friend the AHJ says:

My friend the AHJ says:

"The 08 Arc-fault issue is a bunch of BS. What do you think is gonna happen? The EC's will put in arc faults, pass inspection then swap them out with standard breakers."

Which he would do in his own home on a service upgrade, BTW.

Oh, and bear in mind this is the same guy who is a stickler for proper grounding/bonding and other REAL safety issues.

Arc faults are NOT a reliable product, it would be inviting disaster to stuff 30 of them in a panel (and let's watch the panel burn from the heat build-up), oh, then we'll have to come up with 60-space panels to allow a gap between arc faults, but wait, the NEC prohibits more than 48 spaces, so now we'll have to amend that, then we have to build bigger walls on all houses to fit a 60-space double height panel, but now the main will be ten feet in the air, and the bottom breakers will be around two feet above grade, so let's make double-wide panels so now we have issues framing in an opening with penetrations top and bottom for cables in a structural wall........yada, yada.....

One of the main things arc faults are touted to "save" us from is cable staples cutting into the NM. That may be true..but first off, in my past experiences working with an EC if anyone did punch a staple down too tight (and yes, I have done it too) then the result was, again in my experiences, always a dead short which tripped a standard breaker quite nicely. That's an installation issue, one which should be caught on initial power up or for that matter rough inspection.

I agree with paul, let natural selection take over. :)

And here's some food for thought:

If we legislate or otherwise force unproven or half a**ed safety ideas or products on the general public, what do you think the result has been/is?

A false sense of security!!

Another thing arc faults are supposed to protect us from is pinched/damaged extension cords...so what do you think John Q. Public's idea will be after a house full of arc faults is installed?

I can use as many extension cords as I want, it'll be safe!!

Arc faults will rapidly become the airbags of the electrical industry. :(
 
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Too late for Bob to take it back

Too late for Bob to take it back

iwire said:
Now, Don, George, Byran, Ryan, Mike, George and many others have put in many proposals to change the NEC, those folks have earned the right to complain, I have not.
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Alright Bob, I'll remember that you gave me the right to complain. You're probably going to regret it though (just ask my wife)!
 
ryan_618 said:
Alright Bob, I'll remember that you gave me the right to complain.
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I did not give it to you, it's not mine to give or keep, you earned it.

Of course your wife may feel differently. :D
 
A couple of items of note for the near future of installations and NEC proposed code changes.

The number of overcurrent devices for panel boards (42) is most likely going to be deleted from 408.35. If not deleted, modified.
Canada does not have this restriction and there are major manufacturers providing 60 circuit panel boards.
The requirement we will follow is 110.3(B)... and UL does list 60 circuit panelboards.



At the Eastern Section of the IAEI, I spent about 1 1/2 hours speaking to Rob Dollar (Rob is leading the development for Seimons in the Arch Fault arena) from Seimons and Alan Manche from SQD about the new developments for Arch Fault Circuit Breakers, here is some of what I learned.
Arch fault circuit breakers.

1. Manufacturers are modifying the electronics in the circuit breakers to reduce the heat produced by the electronics. They do not believe there is a cause for concern for the heat developed now, but they do see a way of changing the miliamps drawn by the electronics to be reduced... thereby reducing the heat produced.

2. The amperage of the current Arch fault CBs for feeder/branch feeders now requires up to 75 amps to open the device (They did agree most are set at 50 or so amps for the tripping level). This level will be reduced to 5 amperes for the "Combination type".... a very distinctive difference that will provide protection for the cords plugged into receptacle outlets.

3. Both companies will have the "combination type" available to the market in the fall of '07.

4. Cutler Hammer currently provides a 3 wire type of Arch Fault CB... both Seimons and SQD will also have one available to market by the fall of '07.

5. Rob from Seimons showed me a prototype "Combination type" and it has a lit indicator to show if the fault is from an Arch fault... I thought that was pretty cool. (Rob is sending me a clear case Combination type to display in my classroom...SQD already sent one to me).
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
3. Both companies will have the "combination type" available to the market in the fall of '07.
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It's unfortunate that by that time the 2008 will be printed and ready for sale - we could have some experience with the new AFCI's with which to form an educated opinion about the wisdom of requiring them for the entire house. :)

Pierre said:
5. Rob from Siemens showed me a prototype "Combination type" and it has a lit indicator to show if the fault is from an Arch fault... I thought that was pretty cool.
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The original AFCI's from Siemens had a mechanical indicator to show if the AFCI is what caused the breaker to trip. It tended to indicate in any situation. :D

iwire said:
Now, Don, George, Bryan, Ryan, Mike, George ... have earned the right to complain...
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Heck, I'd complain if I remembered to mail proposals or not, Bob. :D
 
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