Which Breakers don't belong here?

[ramsy]

Click the pictures, and tell me which breakers are illegal in this equipment.

Murray is stamped on the weather cover.



Close Ups

 

[ActionDave]

I can't say for sure, but I don't think any of them are.

 

[ramsy]

I can't say for sure, but I don't think any of them are.

Thought "Bryant", "Challenger", and "Cutler-Hammer" was eventually acquired by Eaton

Thought you can't mix this Eaton line with Murray / Crouse Hinds, acquired by Siemens ?

 

[ramsy]

Curt describes the history below:

Crouse Hinds distribution equipment was renamed back to Murray when Siemens acquired the line. Murray breakers with the same part number can be used in Crouse Hinds equipment. Crouse Hinds equipment was named Murray before it was Crouse Hinds.

Cutler-Hammer acquired the Westinghouse distribution line which included Challenger. A Cutler-Hammer BR circuit breaker is the replacement for Westinghouse (Bryant) BR circuit breakers and Challenger C breakers. If you look at a BR breaker you will notice that it has both the Westinghouse and Challenger part numbers on it.

Curt explains interchangeability below:

None of those breakers are automatically listed as being interchangeable with other manufactures. An Eaton BR is only listed for use with panels that accept type BR or type C breakers.

Eaton does make some Classified (CL) breakers for use with other manufactures load centers. The breaker instruction will include a list of exactly which load center it is classified for use with. A BR breaker is not a Classified breaker

Classified breakers contradict UL's own requirements. UL states that we must follow the instructions included with the equipment. The instructions with Square D load center state we must only use Square D breakers so to me that throws out the whole legitimacy of using classified breakers.

There are a few AHJ around me that will not accept classified equipment. Circuit breakers and recessed light trims are 2 items they closely watch.

 

[mbrooke]

I am tempted to say none. All are fine.

 

[MAC702]

...All are fine.

Agreed, but that has usually nothing to do with whether or not they are legal... :lol:

 

[ramsy]

For those who can't read the letter in this image "Murray Electrical Products, a brand of Siemens Energy and Automation, would like to advise all of its customers that the use on non-Murray labeled circuit breakers in a Murray load center will void the load center warranty..."

 

[MAC702]

And regardless of warranty, they used the words "improper use."

I'll give that all due consideration, of course.

 

[Jraef]

{image clipped}

For those who can't read the letter in this image "Murray Electrical Products, a brand of Siemens Energy and Automation, would like to advise all of its customers that the use on non-Murray labeled circuit breakers in a Murray load center will void the load center warranty..."

Interesting, because when I worked for Siemens, I had a similar letter to give out that stated that Murray and Siemens breakers were one and the same, totally interchangeable with each other. Of course, we were the dog, they were the tail...

 

[ramsy]

And regardless of warranty, they used the words "improper use."

I'll give that all due consideration, of course.

~45 minutes into this ECM video, a Manufacturer lawyer explains 1% contractor liability for any "improper" equipment installed = 100% liability.

The listed rap sheet of charges against contractors for installing "improper use" may not even require it to be a counterfeit product.

First Offense is 10-yrs in prison, and a $1-Million dollar fine.

 

[ramsy]

Interesting, because when I worked for Siemens, I had a similar letter to give out that stated that Murray and Siemens breakers were one and the same, totally interchangeable with each other. Of course, we were the dog, they were the tail...

Apparently subsequent precautions have ensured any evidence of such a letter has been purged, including the removal of all employees capable of producing any evidence of the origin of such a letter, or its instructions.

 

[mbrooke]

Agreed, but that has usually nothing to do with whether or not they are legal... :lol:

True- but considering how they are one in the same now (Sylvania, Crouse Hinds, Murray, Bryant, BR, Eaton, ect) Id wager its a safe bet.

 

[ramsy]

True- but considering how they are one in the same now (Sylvania, Crouse Hinds, Murray, Bryant, BR, Eaton, ect) Id wager its a safe bet.

Did the same OEM make both Murray and Bryant?

See Top & Bottom breakers in image bellow:

White Breaker, handle color, & label style seem identical with different markings.

Is the Top breaker (Murray EP 15-15) and bottom breaker (Bryant BRD 20-20) from the same MFG, or are these counterfeit equipment?

 

[mbrooke]

Did the same OEM make both Murray and Bryant?

See Top & Bottom breakers in image bellow:

White Breaker, handle color, & label style seem identical with different markings.

Is the Top breaker (Murray EP 15-15) and bottom breaker (Bryant BRD 20-20) from the same MFG, or are these counterfeit equipment?

View attachment 18985

Honestly I don't remember the whole synopsis, but at one point I am mostly certain they did.

 

[Sierrasparky]

For those who can't read the letter in this image "Murray Electrical Products, a brand of Siemens Energy and Automation, would like to advise all of its customers that the use on non-Murray labeled circuit breakers in a Murray load center will void the load center warranty..."

I don't recall how many times on a quote job from Siemens I got Siemens panels with Murray breakers..
Complained and got the same answer " they are all the same and not a issue.

 

[ramsy]

I am tempted to say none. All are fine.

Honestly I don't remember the whole synopsis, but at one point I am mostly certain they did.

It apears you were right all along. Just had to check the panel label.

Identified similar 45 year old Arrow Hart/Murray panel, model LC230PS, with intact label that lists use with these breakers:

Murray MP, MM, EP
Bryant BRD, BRO, BAR, BR, GFCB
Westinghouse QP, QPGF
ITE EQP, QF

This fuse-box label allows mixing specific types of Murray / Bryant / Westinghouse breakers, per 110.3(B), not necessarily mixing Siemens / Eaton, the modern equivalent that aquired those original brands.

According to Murray’s 2001 warning letter posted above, per 110.3(B), it appears any new breakers for this old Murray fuse box must be new Murray brands.