Which code cycle applies

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mjf

mjf

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The incredible, yet very expensive, Hudson Valley,
I remember at a code seminar being told that the code in effect at time of permit gets enforced. Is this the case? I remember guys were pulling permits for tract homes just before we adopted the arc-fault codes. What about if there's an open permit from 1958? how does that get handled? My friend is in the process of buying a house and it turns out the detached garage (has electric) never had a c.o. (1958 permit). Anyone ever run across anything like this?
 
That has always been the case here. The house is under the cycle when the permit was taken out. Not sure what the permit office would do in that case. I suspect if there was permit taken out in 1958 and there appears to be no new wiring then I assume it should fly-- but they may have different rules in that scenario.
 
Open Permit?

Open Permit?

mjf said:
What about if there's an open permit from 1958? how does that get handled?
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I would doubt that there is still an open permit. Most permits expire after a certain length of time unless you get an extension or there is some inspection activity. Whatever was installed in 1958 should be OK, but I doubt you could install anything else and claim that you are still covered by the code that was in effect then.
 
mjf said:
I remember at a code seminar being told that the code in effect at time of permit gets enforced. Is this the case? I remember guys were pulling permits for tract homes just before we adopted the arc-fault codes. What about if there's an open permit from 1958? how does that get handled? My friend is in the process of buying a house and it turns out the detached garage (has electric) never had a c.o. (1958 permit). Anyone ever run across anything like this?
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There is a good chance that the Electrician that pulled that permit is not in the business anymore so it should be closed.

Does the Electrical inspector have a copy of the 1958 NEC?:blink:

Probably not and there would be no way to enforce it so that permit should be just closed ,.

And if the any real hazards in there they should be fixed otherwise it should be excepted as is.:)
 
Here the code in effect is the one that was in effect the day the permit was issued, even if the day before effective code changes. You may find an increase in number of permits issued right before a code change just to have the older code be effective for the permit. The permits here also state right on the permit which edition of NEC applies to that permit.

As far as old permits - I think think the rule here is after 6 months of no activity it is no longer valid. That is not strictly enforced but a permit from 1958 would not exist as the AHJ has not been around that long, but if it had been it would not be accepted as still active, unless maybe if the AHJ has been there every 6 months since 1958 and has noticed some progress. At some point the work will probably exceed what was on the original permit and they will either want additional fees for additional work or a new permit. Not likely work done now is still within the scope of the original 1958 permit.
 
kwired said:
As far as old permits - I think think the rule here is after 6 months of no activity it is no longer valid.
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That is the way it has been in most every area I have worked, if there is no progress being made on the project the permit expires and a new one must be applied for.


Roger
 
kwired said:
Here the code in effect is the one that was in effect the day the permit was issued, even if the day before effective code changes. You may find an increase in number of permits issued right before a code change just to have the older code be effective for the permit. The permits here also state right on the permit which edition of NEC applies to that permit.

As far as old permits - I think think the rule here is after 6 months of no activity it is no longer valid. That is not strictly enforced but a permit from 1958 would not exist as the AHJ has not been around that long, but if it had been it would not be accepted as still active, unless maybe if the AHJ has been there every 6 months since 1958 and has noticed some progress. At some point the work will probably exceed what was on the original permit and they will either want additional fees for additional work or a new permit. Not likely work done now is still within the scope of the original 1958 permit.
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How hard would it be to bring it up to todays code--- Short of digging a new feeder. I suspect they may be okay with that part being it was done years ago.
 
roger said:
That is the way it has been in most every area I have worked, if there is no progress being made on the project the permit expires and a new one must be applied for.


Roger
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I have seen permits where the work stopped for 2 years and they allowed it. Not sure if they do that today. Whatever the situation it will be the permit office that will have to make that decision not us.
 
Actually it's the date of plan check submittal.

Also there is no such thing as an open permit from 1958. Permits are only good for 6 months from date of issueance or last substansial inspection.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
How hard would it be to bring it up to todays code--- Short of digging a new feeder. I suspect they may be okay with that part being it was done years ago.
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I see what you are after and missed the first time through the OP that this is work from 1958 that never received a C.O.

This is a case where I would hope there would be some compromise as it is probably not the owners fault that there was never a C.O. years ago.

There is a good chance there has been some work done since the original permit, that will complicate things, but then again if this work required a permit the AHJ can come back with whatever the penalty is for not filing the permits and who knows what code will be accepted for that work. Unless it has been same owner for all that time you have to be fair with current owner and agree upon what will be current code and what will be allowed to be left in compliance with previous codes - and it will be a unique situation to that install only.
 
I would simply use this for bargaining power, have the seller take care of it, or get a price making it right and have the seller reduce the price by that much.

Roger
 
In NJ if there is no work for 6 months or an inspection within a year they can close it on you (I think I remember that right). Of course, if it's a huge project they are unlikely to dump it on you. Also, you get 6 months from the effective date of the code change to choose whether you want to use the old code or new code, but you have to explicitly say which at the time of filing.
 
Here's your update

Here's your update

Stopped over to take a quick look at the existing electric in the garage. Ha ha ha ha ha. There is none, or should I say there won't be any until a new permit is pulled and all new is installed. Turns out the existing electric was a plug end attached to 2 individual conductors (could be plugged into back door light fixture with an adapter when wanted) running through a hole in the garage siding to a wad of tape splice to three sockets (2 for lamps and 1 with a plug adapter).

Atleast it's an easy fix- SNIP, SNIP

On the other hand(s)

AHJ said 1958 electrical codes would apply. 1958 zoning would apply.

I suppose different jurisdictions would be different, but I picked up an electrical permit yesterday and it says right on it good for 2 years from date of issuance.

alot of you replied that permit is good for 6 months or a year. Maybe that wasn't the case in 1958. The AHJ in each area is the only one that will decide how to handle a situation like this....In this case it turned out to not matter, but if you were to ever run into this situation, I would suggest not to assume that todays standards, timelines, or anything apply. Do what I did and take 20 minutes and ask your local AHJ.

Thanks as always.
 
mjf said:
Stopped over to take a quick look at the existing electric in the garage. Ha ha ha ha ha. There is none, or should I say there won't be any until a new permit is pulled and all new is installed. Turns out the existing electric was a plug end attached to 2 individual conductors (could be plugged into back door light fixture with an adapter when wanted) running through a hole in the garage siding to a wad of tape splice to three sockets (2 for lamps and 1 with a plug adapter).

Atleast it's an easy fix- SNIP, SNIP

On the other hand(s)

AHJ said 1958 electrical codes would apply. 1958 zoning would apply.

I suppose different jurisdictions would be different, but I picked up an electrical permit yesterday and it says right on it good for 2 years from date of issuance.

alot of you replied that permit is good for 6 months or a year. Maybe that wasn't the case in 1958. The AHJ in each area is the only one that will decide how to handle a situation like this....In this case it turned out to not matter, but if you were to ever run into this situation, I would suggest not to assume that todays standards, timelines, or anything apply. Do what I did and take 20 minutes and ask your local AHJ.

Thanks as always.
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What I don't get is why 1958 codes apply to work that is done today.

Better not use any NM-B, PVC, ENT, GFCI's, as there is no code section in 1958 that apply to those items.

You probably can use non grounding 15 and 20 amp receptacles as much as you want.
 
kwired said:
What I don't get is why 1958 codes apply to work that is done today.

Better not use any NM-B, PVC, ENT, GFCI's, as there is no code section in 1958 that apply to those items.

You probably can use non grounding 15 and 20 amp receptacles as much as you want.
Click to expand...


The 1958 codes would not apply to any work that was done today. '58 codes would have applied to the original electric installation (but it turns out there really wasn't any).

At this point, after the garage gets it's c.o. from the 1958 permit, if the owner wishes to add electric to it I will pull a present day electrical permit and everything must be up to present day codes.
 
mjf said:
The 1958 codes would not apply to any work that was done today. '58 codes would have applied to the original electric installation (but it turns out there really wasn't any).

At this point, after the garage gets it's c.o. from the 1958 permit, if the owner wishes to add electric to it I will pull a present day electrical permit and everything must be up to present day codes.
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Well that's true of any installation... "Building service equipment lawfully in existence at the time of the adoption of the technical codes may have their use, maintenance or repair continued if the use maintetnance or repair is in accordance with the original design and a hazard to life, health or property has not been created by such building service equipment"

Also we didn't assume anything about the length of permits being valid...."Every permit issued by the building official under the provision of the technical codes shall expire by limitation and become null and void, if the building or work authorized by such permit is not commenced within 180 days from the date of such permit....."

That's from the admin code, now if your AHJ chose not to adopt the code then that's another matter.
 
mjf said:
Stopped over to take a quick look at the existing electric in the garage. Ha ha ha ha ha. There is none, or should I say there won't be any until a new permit is pulled and all new is installed. Turns out the existing electric was a plug end attached to 2 individual conductors (could be plugged into back door light fixture with an adapter when wanted) running through a hole in the garage siding to a wad of tape splice to three sockets (2 for lamps and 1 with a plug adapter).

Atleast it's an easy fix- SNIP, SNIP

On the other hand(s)

AHJ said 1958 electrical codes would apply. 1958 zoning would apply.

I suppose different jurisdictions would be different, but I picked up an electrical permit yesterday and it says right on it good for 2 years from date of issuance.

alot of you replied that permit is good for 6 months or a year. Maybe that wasn't the case in 1958. The AHJ in each area is the only one that will decide how to handle a situation like this....In this case it turned out to not matter, but if you were to ever run into this situation, I would suggest not to assume that todays standards, timelines, or anything apply. Do what I did and take 20 minutes and ask your local AHJ.

Thanks as always.
Click to expand...

kwired said:
What I don't get is why 1958 codes apply to work that is done today.

Better not use any NM-B, PVC, ENT, GFCI's, as there is no code section in 1958 that apply to those items.

You probably can use non grounding 15 and 20 amp receptacles as much as you want.
Click to expand...

mjf said:
The 1958 codes would not apply to any work that was done today. '58 codes would have applied to the original electric installation (but it turns out there really wasn't any).

At this point, after the garage gets it's c.o. from the 1958 permit, if the owner wishes to add electric to it I will pull a present day electrical permit and everything must be up to present day codes.
Click to expand...

Am I missing something??
 
A permit is still open from 1958 ? Why all of the excitement ? Obtain current permit, perform

needed work, collect paycheck when your 2012 work is approved. Now it's time for a drink.
 
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