Whirlpool tub bond lug

[don_resqcapt19]

M.D.

The installation instructions are concidered part of the listing

The UL statement does not directly say that you are required to follow the provided instructions...just that the instructions have been reviewed as part of the listing process. I will not accept that manufacturer's recomendations (instructions) are required to be complied with by the rule in 110.3(B) as long as there is such a thing as a classified breaker. I really don't care who tells me otherwise, my position on this issue is fixed in stone.
Don

 

[M. D.]

That's Great Don, I'm just trying to offer some information from others who think deeply about these subjects , the world of our creation is imperfect and as such I try hard to to leave the hammer & chissel in the tool bag,. So for you one bad apple spoils the bunch (assuming that it is a bad apple) and no one can prove to you there are good apples present , for you this subject is closed to your mind and that is truely a shame.

 

[dirtywater07]

Whirlpool

Whirlpool

I always follow the manufacturer's details and specs,unless there is a conflict with the nec orAHJ which in my short career I have yet seen..I'm sure there are plenty of details and specs on some of these installation books that have plenty of mistakes:grin:......from what I have seen it seems like every town or city you go to nowadays the inspectors make up their own rules.

 

[M. D.]

It coppied a little funny , but it is one more example of the fact that many in the regulatory community believe the installation instructions are to be followed. This was written by Rich Berman. (this is not an attempt to change Don's mind ,... only he can do that.):smile:

Compliance with the NEC requires

following the UL Guide Information​

?Installed and used in accordance with any instructions​

NEC​

compliance ? how the UL White Book can help​

​

included in the listing or labeling,? as called out in Section

110.3(B) of the NEC, is not limited to markings on the
product, separately provided installation instructions or
information on equipment packaging. For UL certified
products, compliance also requires following the UL Guide
Information.
UL Guide Information is available free of charge in UL?s
Online Certifications Directory at www.ul.com/database.
Guide Information outlines the scope and limitations of
UL?s certification of a particular product category, the
requirements utilized to evaluate products and the
applicable UL Mark by which a product can be identified.​

THE companion tool to the NEC​

In addition to the Online Certifications Directory, UL also

provides this information in the White Book, which is
published annually. A complimentary copy of the 2006 UL
White Book is available by request through UL?s Web site
at https://www.ul.com/auth/regcon.cfm. The White Book​

Utilizing the features of the 2006 UL White Book​

THE CODE AUTHORITY?: ELECTRICAL CONNECTIONS​

Published by the Regulatory Services Department of Underwriters Laboratories Inc.​

​

 

[don_resqcapt19]

When UL changes the rules the change applies to all of the rules, not just the ones where they can make money by changing them.
Don

 

[George Stolz]

Sorry to stray off topic a little, but:

It copied a little funny...

Look for this button (

) in the top left corner of the reply screen. It usually knocks all that extra formatting out right now. Then you can make red the text you want to highlight.

 

[M. D.]

If anyone is interested you can read about these classified breakers here

http://www.connecticut-electric.com/media/ULClassCBs.pdf.

 

[M. D.]

here is another ,perhaps better link. I'm not sure I understand what the issue is with these breakers??

http://www.sea.siemens.com/reselec/product/rzclassified.html

 

[don_resqcapt19]

M.D.

I'm not sure I understand what the issue is with these breakers.

The issue is that every panel comes with instructions that say you must use breakers that are made by the same company that makes the panel.
UL says that you must follow the instructions that are supplied with the product.
UL says that you can use classified breakers in any panel that they are classified for use in even though such use violates the panel instructions that UL says you must follow.
As long as this conflict exists, I will not agree with the UL statement that says all instructions provided by the manufacturer must be complied with.
I do agree that the information in the White Book is listing and labling instructions and must be complied with.
Don

 

[M. D.]

I think what U.L. is saying, is that , if the instructions were part of the listing "process" then the NEC says the equipment is to be installed in accordance with them. Most of the things we , as electricians install , have instructions that are part of the listing .There is also a process that can be followed to bring a particular issue foward.

I remember reading about dryer instructions Mike Holt had issues with ,I'm not sure what the outcome was , point being , he raised his concern and he was heard. (it took a long time ) I think the dryer co. was going to change the instruction sheet..? I'll post a link if I can find it.

 

[infinity]

I agree with Don that not every letter of the instructions needs to be followed without violating the listing. For example I recently installed a light fixture that came with three small wirenuts. The instructions said something like "connect the black/white/bare wires with the wirenuts provided". Well the tiny plastic wirenuts certainly weren't going to fit on the splices made of 3-#12 conductors so I had to use a different wirenut. Does this mean that I violated the listing because the instructions said "use the wirenuts provided"?

 

[M. D.]

Here it is , http://www.mikeholt.com/technical.php?id=nec/unformatted/frigid&type=u&title=Wiring%20Dryer%20to%20the%20Manufactures%20Instructions

 

[M. D.]

Does this mean that I violated the listing because the instructions said "use the wirenuts provided"?

I think that would be up to that agency which listed it. I think the question is , and I don't think there are that many hyper inspectors out there , does it violate 110.3(b)

 

[M. D.]

Check out this news letter from Mke Holt, The issue is fixture screws. While I would agree using other than supplied fixture screws and "wire nuts" ,on most fixtures ,will most likely not get you into the soup , ignoring bonding instructions found in the tub instructions most likely will. We have to make these types of calls all the time and it will only matter when it matters.

http://www.neccode.com/newsletters.php?action=display&letterID=145

 

[don_resqcapt19]

M.D.

Most of the things we , as electricians install , have instructions that are part of the listing .

This is where we disagree...I don't believe that most of the instructions are part of the listing.
Don

 

[don_resqcapt19]

M.D.

While I would agree using other than supplied fixture screws and "wire nuts" ,on most fixtures ,will most likely not get you into the soup , ignoring bonding instructions found in the tub instructions most likely will. We have to make these types of calls all the time and it will only matter when it matters.

I also agree that not following the instructions can get you into hot water, but I don't agree that not following them is a code violation. It is my opinion that the only instructions that are part of the listing are those found in the White Book.
Don

 

[Dennis Alwon]

M.D.

I also agree that not following the instructions can get you into hot water, but I don't agree that not following them is a code violation. It is my opinion that the only instructions that are part of the listing are those found in the White Book.
Don

I tend to agree with you Don but our state inspector (I called him yesterday) disagrees. He says if it is in the instructions then you need to follow them. When I specifically mentioned bonding the hydromassage tubs he said you don't have to-- I told him about the instructions that M.D. had and he says he has never had that come across his desk. Needless to say he stated, reluctantly I believe, that you would have to follow the mfg instruction but he added that he would contact probably contact the mfg. to get clarification before insisting it be done.

 

[M. D.]

M.D.

..... It is my opinion that the only instructions that are part of the listing are those found in the White Book.
Don

Don, do you have any thing to back up this statement of opinion, anything at all ,I can not find supporting statements from those in the industry , and trust me, I have looked.

 

[M. D.]

This is from the State of N.H. Bureau of Electrical Safety and Licensing
#6 click on the light bulb to see a bit more.



http://www.nh.gov/safety/divisions/firesafety/electrician/deficiencies/2005/questions_2005.html

 

[M. D.]

this indicates that the installation instructions are "critical" in regard to 110.3(b)

6.3 Q. Can UL provide installation instructions for Listed
products on UL?s website?
A. UL does not intend to provide manufacturers installation
instructions on our website. UL Listed products are
required to be provided with installation instructions
when they leave the factory and these are critical in
determining compliance with NEC Section 110.3(B) in the field.
Questions and Answers from UL Meetings with Electrical Inspectors at the
IAEI 75th
Jubilee Meeting

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