White wires as travelers on 3-way

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Re: White wires as travelers on 3-way

You may want to contact one of the members (via mail) of the code making panel and get a responce in writing that you can show the inspector. I know this takes alittle time but I have done this in the past with some success. While a responce from one member would not be an official interpretation it often is enough to make your point with the AHJ.
 
Re: White wires as travelers on 3-way

I have found it helpful to pay close attention to the exact words used, especially at the end of the first sentence of 200.7(C)(2)
200.7 Use of Insulation of a White or Gray Color or with Three Continuous White Stripes.
(C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More.


(2) Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet .
A re-identified white traveller runs from switch to switch, supplying the second switch . The wire running between the last switch and the switched outlet is the a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet . That is, the return conductor has a switch on one end and the switched outlet on the other end.
 
Re: White wires as travelers on 3-way

There there Wayne :)

[ February 09, 2005, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
 
Re: White wires as travelers on 3-way

George,
But Al, what color is the supply to the four way?
Re-identified white, if one chooses.

More to the point, on the supply side of the (fourway) switch, either traveller will be the supply to the (fourway) switch. On the load side of the (fourway) switch, the travellers are not going from the switch to the switched outlet, but, rather, are the supply to the next switch, that is, either another fourway or the end threeway.

The NEC Handbook has the following text immediately following 200.7(C)(2)
Previous editions of the Code permitted switch loops that contained a white insulated conductor that was used to supply the switch and that was not used to supply the luminaires to remain white. Prior to the 1999 NEC, re-identification of this particular ungrounded conductor was not required. However, many electronic automation devices requiring a grounded conductor are now available for installation into switch outlets. Therefore, re-identification of all ungrounded conductors that are white or any permitted white coloring is now required at each and every termination point. The required re-identification must be effective, permanent, and suitable for the environment, in order to clearly identify the insulated conductor as an ungrounded conductor. Proper re-identification should eliminate the possibility of miswiring new electronic automation devices during installation.
 
Re: White wires as travelers on 3-way

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:
George,
But Al, what color is the supply to the four way?
Re-identified white, if one chooses.
We can't elect to follow code at our whim. If that interpretation of the code is right, we would need to buy romex with two whites in it, to rededicate, to use as travellers. Two wires supply the same switch. It's just plain silly.


Previous editions of the Code permitted switch loops that contained a white insulated conductor that was used to supply the switch and that was not used to supply the luminaires to remain white.
I think it's clear that an outlet with power already in it that needs a switch to control it is what's being described here.

There is a concern that, over time, the "painting or other effective means" shall pass away. Therefore, it makes darn good sense that the factory colored "white" and factory "black" be present at an outlet that is switched in this fashion. In 50 years, they take down that old light, hopefully there'll be a black and a white hooked to the light, it's replacement will be polarized correctly, and it will be safe.

Editted, because I didn't shut up. :)

[ February 11, 2005, 07:24 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 
Re: White wires as travelers on 3-way

Hey Al did you notice the wording the handbook chose to use?

However, many electronic automation devices requiring a grounded conductor are now available for installation into switch outlets................
I noticed that a yesterday when reading the handbook.

Is a switch an outlet? :D

Not in my mind but I did find it interesting. :cool:

[ February 10, 2005, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: White wires as travelers on 3-way

:D :D LOL! :D :D

As I've maintained, a switch is installed at an outlet. (A switch is not a receptacle.)
 
Re: White wires as travelers on 3-way

George,

Your February 10, 2005 08:44 AM post threw me a curve I didn't see coming. . .Are you saying that a cable's white conductor, re-identified, used as a traveller can't be done unless all the conductors in the cable are special ordered white? :confused:
 
Re: White wires as travelers on 3-way

A re-identified white traveller runs from switch to switch, supplying the second switch . The wire running between the last switch and the switched outlet is the a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet . That is, the return conductor has a switch on one end and the switched outlet on the other end.
The thing is, that the way this is worded is singular in many instances where it would have to be plural to make the "white hot constantly" or to make 200.7(C)(2) apply to travellers at all.

"the supply" would be "any supply", etc
"the switch" would be "any switch", etc

The repeated use of terms that limit this to singular objects tells us something. There is one switch involved--at least, there is one switch being referenced by this code. There is one outlet involved. You can't make a farmer switch happen any other way. You can configure it as a threeway, sure, but that one cable assembly, the one with the supply from the outlet and the return conductor to the outlet, is specifically and singularly referenced here.

Are you saying that a cable's white conductor, re-identified, used as a traveller can't be done unless all the conductors in the cable are special ordered white?
Hypothetically, yes, I am saying that if this code were changed (to plural references) to include re-identified white travellers, the conductors that supplied a switchleg side of a threeway in this system would have to be white to begin with, be re-identified, so that each supply to that switch were white. This doesn't add up. The travellers are not being referenced here. Besides, those reidentified white travellers wouldn't be the supply at the other switch, would they?

Consider this diagram:
Farmer3way.jpg


The "switch loop" between the outlet and the switch on the right is specifically referenced here. The three-wire running between threeways does not have a "return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet." It doesn't meet the criteria, this code doesn't apply. The three-wire between switches can be called a "switch loop" but the functions and criteria are not similar to this code, so this code doesn't govern it.

In this diagram, the "switch loop" between outlet and switch are referenced, so the white conductor must be used to feed the other switch loops to get the ball rolling, and the result must come back on the black wire, the return conductor. Do whatever you want, however you want in the meantime, this code references only this switch loop. It governs the supply to the switching system, and the return from the switching system. What the switching system is beyond that is beyond this code. Stating that it applies to single pole, 3-way, 4-way switches confirms that regardless of other circumstances at work, this switch loop is to be done this way.

[ February 11, 2005, 07:44 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 
Re: White wires as travelers on 3-way

George posted February 10, 2005 09:06 PM
that one cable assembly, the one with the supply from the outlet and the return conductor to the outlet, is specifically and singularly referenced here.
When I look at 200.7(C)(2) I note the plural of loops
200.7 Use of Insulation of a White or Gray Color or with Three Continuous White Stripes.
(C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More.


(2) Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet.
The IEEE Standard Dictionary of Electrical and Electronic Terms defines assembly as: A number of basic parts or subassemblies, or any combination thereof, joined together to perform a specific function.

I submit that the specific function of the cable assembly is the control of a switched outlet with a switch loop. The components of the cable assembly are the section(s) of cable, strap(s), box(es), wirenut(s), switch(es) needed to assemble a Code compliant switch loop that effectively controls the switched outlet. 200.7(C)(2) lists three different assemblies. . .single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops. Seems to me that they are all there. . .that it is not just the switch loop down to a single pole and back.
 
Re: White wires as travelers on 3-way

By Al: I submit that the specific function of the cable assembly is the control of a switched outlet with a switch loop. The components of the cable assembly are the section(s) of cable, strap(s), box(es), wirenut(s), switch(es) needed to assemble a Code compliant switch loop that effectively controls the switched outlet.
Al I think we are getting a little too carried away with reading to much into this.

The part that say's
"(2) Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops
The "assembly" it's talking about is only the cable assembly (two insulated conductors and a uninsulated conductor with an overall outer jacket) between the switch and the switched outlet. The word assembly is a singular word which would mean it is only talking about one cable. It goes on to say that it has a white insulated conductor that is used for the supply to the switch, but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet, this would only be possable in a farmer's switch (as Georage call's it) There is no "supply to the switch" in any of the other "cable assembly's" that are between the other switch's that have a "supply to the switch" so this should mean they are only referring to the cable assembly that is between the last switch and the switch outlet.

Oh by the way george the art work is great! It even has the box hight marked and S3 hall marked on the stud just like in the real world. LOL :D

wave.gif
Hi George
wave.gif
 
Re: White wires as travelers on 3-way

How did you do that George? The one-ear talent is great but would your trade secret for posting graphics be available? :cool: Do you compress the graphics file or what? And then what?

rbj
 
Re: White wires as travelers on 3-way

The cable is a basic part, manufactured by others. As I assemble a working switch loop, I pick the parts that allow it to work. Then I assemble them into a cable assembly.

Turn this idea of the "cable assembly" to a "conduit assembly". By your use of "assembly", a conduit assembly would be an empty tube that runs between the coupling or connector on either end.

Also, adhereing to the non-plural idea above in George's explanation means that I can only have one switched outlet. If I add a second switched outlet, controlled by the same switch loop, by this logic, 200.7(C)(2) can't be used.
 
Re: White wires as travelers on 3-way

Originally posted by al hildenbrand:
The cable is a basic part, manufactured by others. As I assemble a working switch loop, I pick the parts that allow it to work. Then I assemble them into a cable assembly.
Hmm...
334.2 Definitions. Nonmetallic-Sheathed Cable. A factory assembly of two or more insulated conductors enclosed within an overall nonmetallic jacket.
Also, adhereing to the non-plural idea above in George's explanation means that I can only have one switched outlet. If I add a second switched outlet, controlled by the same switch loop, by this logic, 200.7(C)(2) can't be used.
The special switch loop is what is referenced. If you add a light supplied from the "farmer" light, it's not a cable running from switch to outlet, but outlet to outlet, and the white wire wouldn't be be used as an ungrounded conductor, so this code doesn't apply. If you pull out of the switch to another outlet, good luck. :)

200.7(C)(2) lists three different assemblies. . .single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops. Seems to me that they are all there. . .that it is not just the switch loop down to a single pole and back.
There isn't a single pole in my diagram, but this code applies to it all the same. If that special box were a four way (like the explanatory box on the bottom right), this code would still apply. That's why it's good to mention all three types, because you can't throw a four-way in and stick your tongue out and say, "This code doesn't apply, I have a four way in that box and not a single pole." :)

Wayne said,
Oh by the way george the art work is great! It even has the box hight marked and S3 hall marked on the stud just like in the real world. LOL :D
Yeah, I started out with one decent picture, and copied and pasted as I drew different patterns. I'd imagine some of the writing on the studs in the pictures doesn't match what's going on at all! :D

Gndrod, I drew the pictures with a drawing program (in my case, Appleworks), saved them as a .jpg file, then I go to my account at www.photobucket.com , Upload my pictures there, and then come back to Holts, post and click on the :D
 
Re: White wires as travelers on 3-way

Al your always out there on the edge and thats good, we need that with Bennie gone. :D

I agree with Wayne you are trying to hard. :p

Bob
 
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