Who is qualified to relamp an LED?

[nietzj]

If they are educated on all the he aspects of the product that they are working on there shouldn't be an issue with them replacing the LED lamps

That brings us back to my question, is there any language in the NEC, OSHA somewhere that supports this quote, otherwisw it's just an opinion and that's the problem. If the janitor gets injured changing an LED lamp I'm guessing the lawyers would like to know who deemed this as safe for a non-licensed person to do this work. I would love to see something in writing to support this eiither way.

 

[kwired]

This is a slippery slope, who exactly would determine when someone is qualified?
Why even bother getting an electrical license, just get qualified by your employer for the task of doing electrical work in a 2 hour safety class and you're all set.

A maintenance man may very well be considered qualified to change lamps or even ballasts/drivers, yet is not qualified, and/or licensed where that is a requirement to add on new branch circuits or extensions to existing branch circuits and other similar activity.

Look at many appliance or equipment repair persons. They have some electrical skills but only considered qualified to work on the equipment they are associated with. Many cases if there is something wrong with the supply circuit to said equipment all they can do is say it is not receiving proper voltage, and someone else must work on premises wiring leading to that equipment.

They might even see what is wrong but are not allowed to do anything with it themselves. In that situation they possibly could be qualified but yet not authorized, even if just for potential liability reasons.

 

[jim dungar]

That brings us back to my question, is there any language in the NEC, OSHA somewhere that supports this quote, otherwisw it's just an opinion and that's the problem. If the janitor gets injured changing an LED lamp I'm guessing the lawyers would like to know who deemed this as safe for a non-licensed person to do this work. I would love to see something in writing to support this eiither way.

You need to look at NFPA70E (Electricak Safe Work Practices) not in the NEC. It basically says it is up to the employer to analyze the hazards/risks of a task and then qualify employees by proper training and testing. OSHA requires employers to protect their employees basically by following standards such as NFPA70E.

 

[kwired]

You need to look at NFPA70E (Electricak Safe Work Practices) not in the NEC. It basically says it is up to the employer to analyze the hazards/risks of a task and then qualify employees by proper training and testing. OSHA requires employers to protect their employees basically by following standards such as NFPA70E.

Just to be clear for some, AFAIK OSHA doesn't require following 70E, but it is basically the most recognized thing to use for general electrical safety. OSHA would allow a company to totally write it's own electrical safety policy, but should there be an investigation after say a work related death, they won't challenge content of 70E if that is your safety policy but might challenge content of a self made policy or any amendments you might add to 70E as part of your policy, so many simply use 70E as is written for CYA purposes.

 

[nietzj]

I'l read through my NFPA70E

 

[kwired]

I'l read through my NFPA70E

I'm not very familiar with 70E myself, but would guess they don't really mention licensing as much as training as qualifiers. That said obtaining a license often requires training or at least proving certain knowledge (usually via written tests) related to reason for having said license.

 

[nietzj]

I'll read through my NFPA 70E but I dout I will find what I'm looking for, probably some vauge statement like make sure everyone is trained and qualified for the task. I actually think safety manuals are written so as not to be held accountable in a death or injury. In my state there is a license designed just for this called Electrical Maintenance but to obtain this license it's the same amount of time as a Journeyman so why not just get your Jorneyman's license so you can do installation as well.

 

[kwired]

I'll read through my NFPA 70E but I dout I will find what I'm looking for, probably some vauge statement like make sure everyone is trained and qualified for the task. I actually think safety manuals are written so as not to be held accountable in a death or injury. In my state there is a license designed just for this called Electrical Maintenance but to obtain this license it's the same amount of time as a Journeyman so why not just get your Jorneyman's license so you can do installation as well.

Well for one thing 70E wouldn't necessarily cover the knowledge one might need to successfully relamp or replace a ballast or driver. It mostly would cover making sure you either turned off and verified the power source was off before working or what proper PPE is if working live, or even cover situations that would justify working live. You might not know much at all about how the lamp or driver actually works, but as long as you know how to safely work on it, that is all that 70E is about. Then comes other safety not covered in 70E, like maybe fall protection if this is an elevated location where the work is to be done.

 

[nietzj]

You need to look at NFPA70E (Electricak Safe Work Practices) not in the NEC. It basically says it is up to the employer to analyze the hazards/risks of a task and then qualify employees by proper training and testing. OSHA requires employers to protect their employees basically by following standards such as NFPA70E.

This is vauge to me, in a large institution who is the employer? Who does the training? Who iis liable in the event of injury? These are the questions I would like answered but I guessing it's not found written anywhere, it will be more of someone's opinion. I guess there's no real answer to any of this.
Thanks for the feedback.

 

[jim dungar]

This is vauge to me, in a large institution who is the employer? Who does the training? Who iis liable in the event of injury? These are the questions I would like answered but I guessing it's not found written anywhere, it will be more of someone's opinion. I guess there's no real answer to any of this.
Thanks for the feedback.

You do not give up your responsibility, for a safe work environment, by simply farming out the work to an outside firm.
In the end your share of the responsibility will likely be determined by a judge.

During the apprentice period, for a license, how many hours are spent being taught simply how to change a light bulb? How many other skills were required to be mastered first?

 

[petersonra]

As long as the person (or monkey) making the change is properly trained and qualified to do so, I don't have an issue with the job title of the person doing the work. There could be aspects of such changes that a typical electrician might need training on before being considered "qualified".

Maintenance guys have been doing light electrical work very safely and effectively for more than 100 years.

 

[kwired]

This is vauge to me, in a large institution who is the employer? Who does the training? Who iis liable in the event of injury? These are the questions I would like answered but I guessing it's not found written anywhere, it will be more of someone's opinion. I guess there's no real answer to any of this.
Thanks for the feedback.

Basics say the employer is responsible for safety of the employees. That can get a little complicated in some situations, but doesn't make those further up the chain completely immune to liability either.

Many larger organizations still require any outsiders to comply with their safety standards even though they technically are not employees of the organization contracting with outsiders. At very least it helps lessen civil lawsuits after some event occurs as they will have their safety policy to rely on as long as they can show they were not negligent in implementing said policy.

 

[nietzj]

Thanks for the responses. to be clear this institution has about 25,000 employees. Some departments are safety compliance while others departments deliver services and are focused on cutting cost. Two competing interests both with the same employer. The janitors are also employed by the institution and have no electrical training. My question is should the janitors be allowed to do "light:" electrical work if they attend a short training class?
Or, is relamping an LED even considered electrical work?

 

[petersonra]

Thanks for the responses. to be clear this institution has about 25,000 employees. Some departments are safety compliance while others departments deliver services and are focused on cutting cost. Two competing interests both with the same employer. The janitors are also employed by the institution and have no electrical training. My question is should the janitors be allowed to do "light:" electrical work if they attend a short training class?
Or, is relamping an LED even considered electrical work?

The question that matters is have the janitors been trained in this task?

Another question that matters is why did the issue come up?

Also, is a permit required from the local AHJ for this kind of work?

 

[nietzj]

The question that matters is have the janitors been trained in this task?

Another question that matters is why did the issue come up?

Also, is a permit required from the local AHJ for this kind of work?

All good questions,
1, Yes, the janitors will be trained.
2, The department that likes to cut cost has proposed this to our Safety Compliance department.
3, The AHJ doesn't know how to respond to this, no permit required but who can perform the work is the question.

 

[jim dungar]

My question is should the janitors be allowed to do "light:" electrical work if they attend a short training class?
Or, is relamping an LED even considered electrical work?

You started off by talking about revamping an LED, now you are talking about 'light' electrical work.

You need to decide what exact tasks need to be performed, then you can decide what training is needed to complete those tasks, finally you can determine what prior qualifications may be needed.

 

[kwired]

All good questions,
1, Yes, the janitors will be trained.
2, The department that likes to cut cost has proposed this to our Safety Compliance department.
3, The AHJ doesn't know how to respond to this, no permit required but who can perform the work is the question.

You started off by talking about revamping an LED, now you are talking about 'light' electrical work.

You need to decide what exact tasks need to be performed, then you can decide what training is needed to complete those tasks, finally you can determine what prior qualifications may be needed.

He kind of asked if changing the lamp is considered light electrical work.

From the local government AHJ, it apparently is not an activity they require permits or even licensing, so basically not something they get involved with.

From OSHA point of view, probably is some electrical hazards involved so therefore electrical safety policy probably should be something that needs consideration when performing these tasks, just like fall arrest is a possible safety issue that applies as well to many these lamp changes.

Is the electrical hazard enough that it requires moon suit to perform the task? Maybe not, but there is electrical involved in this task and exposure risks need evaluated to determine what PPE might be required. The safety policies won't care as much about whether employee is qualified enough to know all the technical details of how this luminaire works, they just want to know the employee knows enough to prevent getting injured or killed by it. If he mixes components that are not compatible with one another and it damages said components because of it, that isn't what safety policies are about.

 

[nietzj]

You started off by talking about revamping an LED, now you are talking about 'light' electrical work.

Actually never said revamping, my original post was just about relamping, big difference. Someone else used ther term "light" electrical work but it goes along the same lines. Who gets to determine who is qualified and while were at it who determines what "light" electrical work is?
I know there is no answer to these questions, just frustrating, might be easier to just go with the Sergeant Schultz response... I see nothing

 

[petersonra]

Actually never said revamping, my original post was just about relamping, big difference. Someone else used ther term "light" electrical work but it goes along the same lines. Who gets to determine who is qualified and while were at it who determines what "light" electrical work is?
I know there is no answer to these questions, just frustrating, might be easier to just go with the Sergeant Schultz response... I see nothing

I don't think there is any such thing as light electrical work. It's not a defined term. If there is no permit required then why would a licensed individual be required to do the work?

This has the smell to me of some jurisdictional fight using safety as the wedge. If all they are doing is changing light bulbs, I just don't see that as a big issue. You can teach people to use ladders or whatever they are using to get to the fixtures, and electricians are going to have to be trained in that as well as janitors. The electricians that do the work are going to have to be trained to do the work just like the janitors would be. It is about being trained enough that you can do the work safely. It's not about what job title you have, but that might be something in the union contract, if there is a union involved.

By the way, were the electricians ever trained to use a broom? Maybe the janitors should complain that electricians are being under trained in cleanup tasks.

 

[kwired]

Actually never said revamping, my original post was just about relamping, big difference. Someone else used ther term "light" electrical work but it goes along the same lines. Who gets to determine who is qualified and while were at it who determines what "light" electrical work is?
I know there is no answer to these questions, just frustrating, might be easier to just go with the Sergeant Schultz response... I see nothing

Your local governing AHJ's likely don't care about relamping tasks, if they did you would be filing permits with them for lamp changes, as well as needing some licensing level to do so.

OSHA however still requires determining of hazards for pretty much anything an employee does, if hazards are determined they at least want some kind of training on how to deal with said hazards, usually focusing on mitigating those hazards as much as possible or else wearing suitable PPE if the hazard can't be totally eliminated or some combination of both.