Who's responsible for pulling permits?

[kwired]

If the any one of the 3 new NEC versions are adopted without modification then it is not supposed to vary. ALL NEW WIRING requires a permit. Wether it is enforced is another story.

All new wiring requires a permit - has to be a AHJ rule, it is not in any edition of NEC.

Maybe we are not talking about same things here. You have me understanding that you are saying last three editions of NEC have permit rules of some sort in them:?

 

[elf friend]

The person who is doing the work must pull the permits around here if they are needed. Some communities say that if the job is less th "X" $ then you don't need a permit while others say that everything needs a permit. The only time an owner can pull a permit is if it is under a two family unit and he/she lives in one of those units. About the only thing the owner cannot do is service work whick takes a person with an state issued electrical contracting license which a master electrician must be the owner of the EC or employed by the EC.

 

[kwired]

The person who is doing the work must pull the permits around here if they are needed. Some communities say that if the job is less th "X" $ then you don't need a permit while others say that everything needs a permit. The only time an owner can pull a permit is if it is under a two family unit and he/she lives in one of those units. About the only thing the owner cannot do is service work whick takes a person with an state issued electrical contracting license which a master electrician must be the owner of the EC or employed by the EC.

You bring up a second question that the OP maybe should have included - when is a permit required?

Here with single family dwellings it is only when there is a new service being installed. That means a new house has a new service. Existing homes can be nearly completely rewired or have major additions put on with no wiring permit required as long as the service has not been changed. POCO's are not supposed to energize a new service if the AHJ has not forwarded them permit info.

Agricultural installations are exempt from inspection, and unfortunately on farms is where you see some of the biggest wiring messes. There have been thoughts of some changes to this but so far haven't happened. A rural POCO in my region has a policy not to energize anything over 250 volts to ground though without an inspection though. This is their policy and not AHJ policy, but AHJ will inspect anything an application is filed for whether it legally needed to have a permit or not.

Beyond that - maintenance/repairs where only changing damaged or defective components with like components doesn't require permits. The rules maybe get bent pretty hard in this category at times.

 

[Cletis]

If the any one of the 3 new NEC versions are adopted without modification then it is not supposed to vary. ALL NEW WIRING requires a permit. Wether it is enforced is another story.

This is the crux of my initial question really. I ran into a "Situation" (Crazy Person) and had to see the legalities of not pulling a permit and actually who was responsible to who and was it enforsable by who ?? I went off researching it and had no idea it was so complicated and basically couldn't really get straight answers from anyone. Around here we work in a total of 7 counties, 3 states, and lot's of townships, and cities that are excempt and have their own AHJ.

We have the state boards who reside over us in 2 states
The local county building depts
The special agencies who supercede the building depts
The special agencies who compete with other special agencies
Municipalities
Bureau of Standards

So, who really is the AHJ and who enforces what and what can they do and to who for not pulling a permit for a residential circuit ? That is the question and I still can't find an answer from the above agencies really.

 

[kwired]

This is the crux of my initial question really. I ran into a "Situation" (Crazy Person) and had to see the legalities of not pulling a permit and actually who was responsible to who and was it enforsable by who ?? I went off researching it and had no idea it was so complicated and basically couldn't really get straight answers from anyone. Around here we work in a total of 7 counties, 3 states, and lot's of townships, and cities that are excempt and have their own AHJ.

We have the state boards who reside over us in 2 states
The local county building depts
The special agencies who supercede the building depts
The special agencies who compete with other special agencies
Municipalities
Bureau of Standards

So, who really is the AHJ and who enforces what and what can they do and to who for not pulling a permit for a residential circuit ? That is the question and I still can't find an answer from the above agencies really.

If your dilemma is over a single new circuit in residential, and nobody from AHJ can answer it, then don't get a permit, but at least make sure you install to whatever code is in force in that area at that time, then if you do get in a jam over permits you hopefully will still at least get through the inspection that is likely to follow. Or if you are a CYA type of person file permit anyway - it is only more expense to pass on to owner if it didn't need to happen.

 

[RICK NAPIER]

This is a very good explanation but I'd like to expand on this a bit. As I understand the process (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong), if the HO pulls and pays for the permit HE is assuming the responsibility for the work. Now, if he goes ahead and hires a licensed electrician to actually do the work (and technically speaking that electrician is not supposed to do the work even if it is his neighbor), while he will probably get a better installation than if he did the work himself, he still bears the responsibility for the work.

Now, let's assume something goes wrong on the job (i.e code violation, electrical fire, damage, etc.) that homeowner's only recourse would be to the electrician personally and not the electrical contractor's company. I wouldn't think that the contractor's insurance would not come into play seeing as how he did the work without a permit.

You are from NJ so let me answer for just NJ. In NJ there is joint responsibility of the owner and contractor for a permit. The permit is owned by the owner of the property. In the case you mention a change of contractor should of been filed but it would be considered work with a permit since the homeowner had taken out the original permit.

 

[growler]

So, who really is the AHJ and who enforces what and what can they do and to who for not pulling a permit for a residential circuit ? That is the question and I still can't find an answer from the above agencies really.

Who is the authority having jurisdiction? This will be the authority that requires you to pull a permit in the first place. It can be a city, county or state.

You start out with the location of the job. On one side of the road you may be under the jurisdiction of the city and on the other side of the road you may be in the jurisdiction of the county. First you find out who has jurisdiction for this particular address.

In that jurisdiction they decide what jobs require a permit, who can pull a permit and what they will do if a permit is not pulled.

 

[Cletis]

Who is the authority having jurisdiction? This will be the authority that requires you to pull a permit in the first place. It can be a city, county or state.

You start out with the location of the job. On one side of the road you may be under the jurisdiction of the city and on the other side of the road you may be in the jurisdiction of the county. First you find out who has jurisdiction for this particular address.

In that jurisdiction they decide what jobs require a permit, who can pull a permit and what they will do if a permit is not pulled.

In this particular case anyone can pull a permit, and they are not an enforcement agency and really won't pursue anything other than make us get a permit. No one really has any authority over residential around here

 

[deee]

In Oregon If an alarm installation company hires a journeyman to the job the journeyman is required to pull the permit. A master license is not required

 

[kwired]

In this particular case anyone can pull a permit, and they are not an enforcement agency and really won't pursue anything other than make us get a permit. No one really has any authority over residential around here

What is the incentive to make people file these permits if nobody really has any authority? Usually there are penalties and/or no connection by POCO, no COA from building dept, maybe insurance is effected, etc. as incentive to make people do what they want done.

 

[goldstar]

You are from NJ so let me answer for just NJ. In NJ there is joint responsibility of the owner and contractor for a permit. The permit is owned by the owner of the property. In the case you mention a change of contractor should of been filed but it would be considered work with a permit since the homeowner had taken out the original permit.

I'm in agreement with you as you describe that situation Rick. Now, what if it's my neighbor or friend ? If I go ahead and buy all the materials, do the install myself and with my company then yes, I should go down and file a "change of contractor" form. However, if he buys all the materials and I just show up to help install the material, HE is responsible for the installation and not me or my company.

 

[kwired]

I'm in agreement with you as you describe that situation Rick. Now, what if it's my neighbor or friend ? If I go ahead and buy all the materials, do the install myself and with my company then yes, I should go down and file a "change of contractor" form. However, if he buys all the materials and I just show up to help install the material, HE is responsible for the installation and not me or my company.

If anything I'd say HE is responsible for coordinating inspections, follow up on corrections, or other things involving the AHJ. Do not think this relieves you of any liabilities that could possibly come up that are related to your installation. If you are involved in any way you are not immune to lawsuits. If you sent the owner a bill, he has evidence of your involvement that is easy to fit in his attorney's briefcase. If he paid you with something traceable - check, credit card, etc. he has even more evidence that something went on between both of you, and with you being an electrical professional, it increases the odds you did electrical work for him.