Who's responsible to enforce 70E

[pfalcon]

OSHA is a Federal mandate. The NEC is typically a State mandate. Most other electrical standards including the 70E are "National Consensus Standards" that OSHA through the "General Duty Clause" encourage you to use. Therefore all the stuff in the 70E about who is responsible for enforcing it are just so much fancy talking.

If your company wants to exceed the OSHA and NEC requirements by adopting the 70E then the burden is on your company to enforce it. To enforce it through internal practice and to enforce it through contractual agreements with those they hire by requiring them to comply. If it's in the contractor's contract then it becomes binding for breaches in contract.

Having said that it's still a good idea to officially adopt and comply with the 70E for these reasons:
1) Obviously for safety's sake.
2) OSHA will want to know your policies for meeting their requirements. 70E adoption works as part of your policy. It's always a bad idea to tell OSHA that you're winging it.
3) Juries tend to agree with OSHA. A diligent attempt to meet the 70E is viewed a lot better than confessing you just play it by ear.
4) You might roll your own policy but let's face it, a lot more experts have reviewed the 70E than will ever view an in-house policy.
5) You might find contractor's that find it easy to comply since they try to anyway. What are the odds they know the details of your in-house policy.

 

[kwired]

As a building owner you should have insurance to cover anything that may happen to people when they are in your building in the event they are not covered or you are somehow found negligent. That does not mean you have to understand their trade and the hazards of it IMO. Isn't that some of the reason you call them in the first place?

Bad thing about this trade is you work at the customers place most of the time instead of them bringing the work to you. How often are you allowed into the auto repair shop area while they are working on your car? They don't want to be liable for what may happen to you.

Going to work someplace where they make you go to a safety briefing may not cover much as far as electrical safety practices go if the typical employee at that place is not normally exposed to electrical hazards. LOTO is fairly standard practice but applies to more than just electrical work.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

As far as the property owners responsibility, it will be interesting to see how the courts respond to the wrongfull death lawsuit filed by the familes of two Chicago fire fighters who were killed in the line of duty in December of 2010.

 

[iwire]

I often look upon the safety community as the trade's orphaned child

nobody, not the state license boards, apprenticeship orginizations, national elecrical orginizations, eta all of our electrical community wishes to take responsibility for imparting safety related education, or even safety related materias, not even a heads up 'look at this'

everybody wants to pin the liablity tail on the employer / customer donkey

well that obviously isn't working out well when bona fide electricians of significant tenure are confronted by 70E , not having seen or heard of it prior.....

~RJ~

Even without the ~ ~ you come through loud and clear, always with the 'life is unfair so lets just complain on the internet about it' posts.

 

[petersonra]

A commerical building owner hires an electrician to do some work. Troubleshooting, installations, whatever. Who is responsible to enforce the use of PPE or proper procedures? The electrican or the building owner?

The employer is the one primarily responsible for enforcing safety rules for his employees. How would the building owner even know what was required?

 

[romex jockey]

What possible good is a doctrine that few see , other than to serve bureacracy?

~RJ~

 

[zog]

I often look upon the safety community as the trade's orphaned child

nobody, not the state license boards, apprenticeship orginizations, national elecrical orginizations, eta all of our electrical community wishes to take responsibility for imparting safety related education, or even safety related materias, not even a heads up 'look at this'

everybody wants to pin the liablity tail on the employer / customer donkey

well that obviously isn't working out well when bona fide electricians of significant tenure are confronted by 70E , not having seen or heard of it prior.....

~RJ~

70E has been around since 1979 and you have never seen it? Whos fault is that?

 

[kwired]

70E has been around since 1979 and you have never seen it? Whos fault is that?

When I was going to trade school 10 years later than that we discussed some topics that are covered by 70E but the name 70E was never brought up - at least not to the extent it would be today.

Safe work practices I have known about for a long time but the fact there is a publication called 70E and that is maybe the base of some of these practices I have not known until more recently.

I have not been exposed to that name until the last 5-8 years, at least not enough to remember that name, and it is because of forums like this and to some extent trade magazines that it is known to me.


There is still lots of places that do not comply with all of OSHA requirements or suggestions, how can you expect them to, there is so much regulation out there, from more than just OSHA, you can't do anything without considering whether or not you are doing something wrong. You just do the best you can, try to use common sense and when you learn something new that you are not doing right you change your ways to accomodate it.

 

[iwire]

There is still lots of places that do not comply with all of OSHA requirements or suggestions, how can you expect them to, there is so much regulation out there, from more than just OSHA, you can't do anything without considering whether or not you are doing something wrong.

How do you personally comply with the myriad of general laws in daily life?

The police don't stand by your side telling you what is OK and what is not, we are all expected to know and follow the law.

To say 'it is difficult' is an understatement but it is what is required of each and everyone of us in our personal lives and on the job.


(BTW OSHA will come to a site to aid in compliance, all the company has to do is ask)

 

[kwired]

How do you personally comply with the myriad of general laws in daily life?

The police don't stand by your side telling you what is OK and what is not, we are all expected to know and follow the law.

To say 'it is difficult' is an understatement but it is what is required of each and everyone of us in our personal lives and on the job.


(BTW OSHA will come to a site to aid in compliance, all the company has to do is ask)

I understand that, but there is always something that comes up that you were not aware of, usually the hard way like being fined for something you did not even know was wrong.

One example buy yourself a heavy duty truck. Nobody is going to stop you from buying it, licensing it or paying taxes on it. Now if it is over a certain capacity, or has air brakes you just may need a special license before you can drive it. It may also need to meet certain criteria to be road legal. You may be aware of some of this when you buy it but there is always some little thing that goes unnoticed until the right law enforcement official sees it. I think it is a big game and lots of $$$ is made on the fines so they are not going to tell you what you are doing wrong unless they collect their fine - then they have to tell you what you are being fined for.

The truck I drive is legal as far as I know, until I connect a trailer to it, then I am not sure, anybody I have ever asked questions about it never gives a straight answer. My father is a commercial truck driver (tractor - trailer) and used to be over the road - all 48 states and even Canada and can't tell me if I am legal with a simple 3/4 ton pick up truck and trailer.

 

[iwire]

I understand that, but there is always something that comes up that you were not aware of, usually the hard way like being fined for something you did not even know was wrong.

So you are saying the people that are smart enough to run a company are incapable of finding out the rules?

I think the real issue is just laziness and fear that compliance will cost a lot of money.

One example buy yourself a heavy duty truck. Nobody is going to stop you from buying it, licensing it or paying taxes on it. Now if it is over a certain capacity, or has air brakes you just may need a special license before you can drive it. It may also need to meet certain criteria to be road legal. You may be aware of some of this when you buy it but there is always some little thing that goes unnoticed until the right law enforcement official sees it. I think it is a big game and lots of $$$ is made on the fines so they are not going to tell you what you are doing wrong unless they collect their fine - then they have to tell you what you are being fined for.

The truck I drive is legal as far as I know, until I connect a trailer to it, then I am not sure, anybody I have ever asked questions about it never gives a straight answer. My father is a commercial truck driver (tractor - trailer) and used to be over the road - all 48 states and even Canada and can't tell me if I am legal with a simple 3/4 ton pick up truck and trailer.

If you are buying this big truck it is your responsibility to ask the questions.

We have a rental place near me that will rent anyone any size or type vehicle, cranes, railroad vehicles etc. and they never ask any questions but the rental agreement makes it clear the renter is responsible to have all necessary certifications, insurance, licenses needed for the equipment.

 

[kwired]

So you are saying the people that are smart enough to run a company are incapable of finding out the rules?

I think the real issue is just laziness and fear that compliance will cost a lot of money.




If you are buying this big truck it is your responsibility to ask the questions.

We have a rental place near me that will rent anyone any size or type vehicle, cranes, railroad vehicles etc. and they never ask any questions but the rental agreement makes it clear the renter is responsible to have all necessary certifications, insurance, licenses needed for the equipment.

3/4 ton truck is not a big truck. Pull an RV with it and nobody cares. Pull a commercial trailer with it that may be lighter than some RV's and the DOT guy's look for anything that may be wrong.

I understand it is my responsibility to find out the rules. How do I know if I found all the rules?

 

[pfalcon]

How do you personally comply with the myriad of general laws in daily life?
The police don't stand by your side telling you what is OK and what is not, we are all expected to know and follow the law.
To say 'it is difficult' is an understatement but it is what is required of each and everyone of us in our personal lives and on the job.
(BTW OSHA will come to a site to aid in compliance, all the company has to do is ask)

So you are saying the people that are smart enough to run a company are incapable of finding out the rules?
I think the real issue is just laziness and fear that compliance will cost a lot of money.

If you are buying this big truck it is your responsibility to ask the questions.

We have a rental place near me that will rent anyone any size or type vehicle, cranes, railroad vehicles etc. and they never ask any questions but the rental agreement makes it clear the renter is responsible to have all necessary certifications, insurance, licenses needed for the equipment.

Wow, I can't believe how many bad presumptions are in just these two quotes Iwire. I'd bet you can't go a week without violating several of those myriad laws. The police typically don't know what's OK or nor. Being smart enough to run a company doesn't mean smart enough to interpret legal code. Hence lawyers. It's not just laziness but frustration. It's not "a lot of money"; it's "whole (censored) loads of money" compared to most profit margins. "... ask the questions." of who? I call those experts downtown a lot. They certainly don't know until I do the research myself and tell them.

But, and I think you've said it elsewhere in this thread: Complaining on a website doesn't get it fixed either. Protect yourself. But at the same time, please don't give me that "It's YOUR responsibility" nonsense as though that excuses all the poor laws, poor bureaucracy, poor enforcement.

 

[kwired]

Wow, I can't believe how many bad presumptions are in just these two quotes Iwire. I'd bet you can't go a week without violating several of those myriad laws. The police typically don't know what's OK or nor. Being smart enough to run a company doesn't mean smart enough to interpret legal code. Hence lawyers. It's not just laziness but frustration. It's not "a lot of money"; it's "whole (censored) loads of money" compared to most profit margins. "... ask the questions." of who? I call those experts downtown a lot. They certainly don't know until I do the research myself and tell them.

But, and I think you've said it elsewhere in this thread: Complaining on a website doesn't get it fixed either. Protect yourself. But at the same time, please don't give me that "It's YOUR responsibility" nonsense as though that excuses all the poor laws, poor bureaucracy, poor enforcement.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

I think we have a responsibility to learn as much as we can about what is right and wrong about things we do, especially when we are in business doing these things for our clients, but it is nearly impossible to know every rule there is, and even if you do achieve that, at some time there will be changes, so you still have to be on top of things.

How many laws are passed as additional items that go along with a larger bill that gets all the attention? In the meantime all these little things slip through with it, that not many pay attention to. This can happen at any level of government.

 

[iwire]

Wow, I can't believe how many bad presumptions are in just these two quotes Iwire. I'd bet you can't go a week without violating several of those myriad laws.

I bet you are right and that is pretty much the point, everyone of us is up against it and is how it is. I may not find out it is ilegal to stand facing west at 4PM on Tuesdays until I do it.

But that said it is pretty easy to reach out and find out what OSHA rules a compnay must follow and if you run a company you are required to do so.

Being smart enough to run a company doesn't mean smart enough to interpret legal code. Hence lawyers. It's not just laziness but frustration.

OK, so a business that can deal with the tax laws, workers right laws, EPA rules cannot figure out how to reach out to OSHA or a training company to help them comply with the law?

That does not sound like frustration, that sounds like lack of commitment.

It's not "a lot of money"; it's "whole (censored) loads of money" compared to most profit margins. "...

Non-compliance can quickly cost much more.

But at the same time, lease don't give me that "It's YOUR responsibility" nonsense as though that excuses all the poor laws, poor bureaucracy, poor enforcement.

It does not excuse anything, but it is a fact and it is a fact for most every human in an advanced country.

 

[kwired]

70E may be more obvious to a person that regularly does electrical work, and even those that don't as far as knowing it applies to electrical work.

Now enter the situation of the OP. The building owner is responsible for knowing about 70E and making sure it is followed in his/her building? Even when hiring contractors that are supposed to know about electricity and electrical safety?

 

[iwire]

70E may be more obvious to a person that regularly does electrical work, and even those that don't as far as knowing it applies to electrical work.

For sure, I doubt they mention 70E in business school.

Now enter the situation of the OP. The building owner is responsible for knowing about 70E and making sure it is followed in his/her building? Even when hiring contractors that are supposed to know about electricity and electrical safety?

How do building owners know they should get certificates of insurance from contractors working their their buildings?

How do building owners know that if they don't clean the sidewalk and someone tumbles they may be sued?

If you own property, if you run a business you have no other choice but to research theses things yourself or hire someone who knows.

I am not even sure what the point of the discussion is.

 

[kwired]

For sure, I doubt they mention 70E in business school.



How do building owners know they should get certificates of insurance from contractors working their their buildings?

How do building owners know that if they don't clean the sidewalk and someone tumbles they may be sued?

If you own property, if you run a business you have no other choice but to research theses things yourself or hire someone who knows.

I am not even sure what the point of the discussion is.

Apparently not enough know about certificates of insurance form contractors, I don't get too many requests for them.

Point of discussion? Who knows. There is always something that you did not know. If you knew everything wouldn't life be kind of boring? Then again I don't know

 

[pfalcon]

I bet you are right and that is pretty much the point, everyone of us is up against it and is how it is. I may not find out it is ilegal to stand facing west at 4PM on Tuesdays until I do it.
But that said it is pretty easy to reach out and find out what OSHA rules a compnay must follow and if you run a company you are required to do so.

Do the words "General Duty Clause" mean anything to you? If you look up the clause and read it does it really explain what you need to do? Required - Yes; Easy - Not always.

OK, so a business that can deal with the tax laws, workers right laws, EPA rules cannot figure out how to reach out to OSHA or a training company to help them comply with the law?
That does not sound like frustration, that sounds like lack of commitment.

Accountant, lawyer, lawyer, lawyer, Zog :lol:
Even the Mega-Corp called Wally-world is having trouble dealing with all those issues and they have loads of smart people trying to wade through it. Try opening a fast-food place. You get to have more part-time "retainer" employees than full-time "working" employees. The owner must actually spend more time managing all those people interpreting rules and laws for him than he spends managing the actual business. It's pretty frustrating to have to show up in small claims court on a Wednesday morning over a trip-and-fall over a sidewalk you don't even own when an employee calls in sick. There is no other good word for it than frustrating that you have to commit so much time to legalities instead of creating a quality product.

Non-compliance can quickly cost much more.

Sure it can. But compliance creates guaranteed losses where non-compliance is a lottery. A lottery you can lose even if you try to be in compliance.

It does not excuse anything, but it is a fact and it is a fact for most every human in an advanced country.

Same for the compliance argument. It's a trade off that different people make different choices about. It doesn't excuse non-compliance; But real business owners sometimes get to choose just how compliant they'll be in the face of business losses. Cheaping out saves a lot of small business owners from failure in bad times. It's a fact in all those same countries.

 

[zog]

I retired from training, funny though.

All the business owner needs to do is have contractors fill out the 70E qualification form I posted, them not knowing is no excuse, never works for me when I get pulled over a say I didn't know what the speed limit was. Companies have safety people paid to be aware of this stuff, smaller ones have to figure it out on thier own. How does one know they have to have the OSHA posters, minimum wage act, and all that stuff?