Why does 277/480 cost so much?

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mbrooke said:
What forces 277 volt panels to be larger?
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Many 'lighting' panelboards (e.g. 400A max bus, 125-150A max branches) are similar sized for 480Y/277 and 208Y/120V, especially in width and depth.

Most 'power' panelboards (e.g. 400A min bus, 200A frame and larger branches) are identically sized for 480Y/277 and 208Y/120V.

The biggest difference I am aware of are the 'height' of each breaker pole, which is probably due to the requirement for larger over surface and through air clearances when dealing with 480V L-L. IMO, it would not be practical to build a 1-pole 277V breaker that was not a physically compatible with 2 and 3-pole 480V versions.
 
jim dungar said:
Many 'lighting' panelboards (e.g. 400A max bus, 125-150A max branches) are similar sized for 480Y/277 and 208Y/120V, especially in width and depth.

Most 'power' panelboards (e.g. 400A min bus, 200A frame and larger branches) are identically sized for 480Y/277 and 208Y/120V.

The biggest difference I am aware of are the 'height' of each breaker pole, which is probably due to the requirement for larger over surface and through air clearances when dealing with 480V L-L. IMO, it would not be practical to build a 1-pole 277V breaker that was not a physically compatible with 2 and 3-pole 480V versions.
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I can understand this.

But why not allow a 120/208 interior to run on 480 volts provided the breakers are listed accordingly. That way you have a low cost option for "smaller" 480 volt installations. 416 volts L-L is not that far from 480 volts L-L, at least thats how I see it.
 
mbrooke said:
I can understand this.

But why not allow a 120/208 interior to run on 480 volts provided the breakers are listed accordingly. That way you have a low cost option for "smaller" 480 volt installations. 416 volts L-L is not that far from 480 volts L-L, at least thats how I see it.
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What part about electrical clearances L-L and L-G are you not getting?

480Y/277V panel interiors need more L-L clearances or insulation in order to deal with the higher voltages. In many cases the path taken by the gasses, produced during current interruption also need to be consider in the design of the bussing insulation. All of this can lead to longer length interiors being required for 480Y/277. Most panelboard manufacturers have standard size boxes that are sometimes used for both 480Y/277 and 208Y/120V panels, which are often in 6"increments. So if the increased clearances for 480Y277V makes the interior 1/4" larger than at 208Y/120V they might have to use the next larger box.


FWIW,
Some of the Square D QO product line can be certified for International use at 240/416 3PH 4W.
https://www.productinfo.schneider-e...b01e4b05736848a9552/r/_SD17707002_Heading3_33
 
jim dungar said:
What part about electrical clearances L-L and L-G are you not getting?
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The listing/testing requirements which mandate it- just what are they basing it on?


480Y/277V panel interiors need more L-L clearances or insulation in order to deal with the higher voltages. In many cases the path taken by the gasses, produced during current interruption also need to be consider in the design of the bussing insulation. All of this can lead to longer length interiors being required for 480Y/277. Most panelboard manufacturers have standard size boxes that are sometimes used for both 480Y/277 and 208Y/120V panels, which are often in 6"increments. So if the increased clearances for 480Y277V makes the interior 1/4" larger than at 208Y/120V they might have to use the next larger box.



FWIW,
Some of the Square D QO product line can be certified for International use at 240/416 3PH 4W.
https://www.productinfo.schneider-e...b01e4b05736848a9552/r/_SD17707002_Heading3_33
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Thats one of the reasons I ask. Same panels are ok overseas for 416 volts, but to UL standards such a panel can not exceed more then 240 volts in US installations.
 
mbrooke said:
...Same panels are ok overseas for 416 volts, but to UL standards such a panel can not exceed more then 240 volts in US installations.
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I am NOT a listing expert, but doesn't UL just test to whatever standard you ask for? Of course, they charge accordingly. It may not be worth it to have it UL tested/listed for use domestically.
 
mbrooke said:
Why do 277/480 volt panels and breakers cost so much? Why not list 120/240 volt 22kaic breakers as 10kaic at 277 volts and use standard 120/208 panelboard guts and enclosures? Just what is so special with 480 volt equipment?
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Part of why they cost so much is just because the sellers can get away with it. You would be shocked at the multipliers that some companies have been able to extract from sellers of such things though. A lot of people are buying the same exact parts others are and paying a lot less.
 
petersonra said:
Part of why they cost so much is just because the sellers can get away with it. You would be shocked at the multipliers that some companies have been able to extract from sellers of such things though. A lot of people are buying the same exact parts others are and paying a lot less.
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For some reason I like your reply- in that you are right about the price multiplier. :happyyes:
 
MAC702 said:
I am NOT a listing expert, but doesn't UL just test to whatever standard you ask for? Of course, they charge accordingly. It may not be worth it to have it UL tested/listed for use domestically.
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I don't know, but I'd imagine something in the listing process causes 240 volt panels to be rejected. I wish I knew what.
 
growler said:
I would think that a good deal of the price for 480V equipment is to recover the cost of development and manufacturing. If you manufacture a product and only sell a million units then the cost to develop and manufacture the product will have a much higher pr unit cost than if you sell a 100 million of said product.

There are a lot more 120V breakers and panels sold.
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I believe this ^ has a large bearing on the cost.
 
mbrooke said:
For some reason I like your reply- in that you are right about the price multiplier. :happyyes:
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The humorous thing is talking with sales people from the electrical distributors about what they can do cost wise already knowing that some people might have a 0.3 multiplier on a certain product where they are offering you the best possible deal at 0.88.

Years ago a certain PLC manufacturer was selling I/O cards to a local company at a 0.25 multiplier if they bought them in skid load quantities (I think they had to buy 100 cards at a time for the discount). At the time the "best" large volume OEM multiplier was like 0.85.
 
petersonra said:
The humorous thing is talking with sales people from the electrical distributors about what they can do cost wise already knowing that some people might have a 0.3 multiplier on a certain product where they are offering you the best possible deal at 0.88.

Years ago a certain PLC manufacturer was selling I/O cards to a local company at a 0.25 multiplier if they bought them in skid load quantities (I think they had to buy 100 cards at a time for the discount). At the time the "best" large volume OEM multiplier was like 0.85.
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Such stuff should be illegal imo.
 
Having spent about 6 years on the inside at CB manufacturers, I can attest to the fact that is is all "what the market will bear". My eye opener was on one major OEM project I was working on involving approx. $5 million in 480V breakers per year. They were offered up by the factory at a multiplier so low, I had to question my continued employment there on the basis of ethics. The price they COULD sell breakers for, and still make a profit, was less than 1/10th the cost that they NORMALLY sold them for to distributors. After all of that however, we LOST the business to a competitor willing to sell them for EVEN LESS than us!

Bottom line is that in the "gear" business, circuit breakers have been the cash cow that kept everyone afloat and with staff on hand to help people, etc. Do you complain that service "ain't what it used to be" from manufacturers? That's why. The erosion of those price levels by the likes of Amazon and others is cutting into the cash flow that was paying for that customer service...
 
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I remember I had a project a few years ago where I negotiated the price of some steel strut. They sold us the steel strut at just a few percent over what scrap steel was selling for at the time. And I did not have to buy all that much of it. I don't recall how much it was but it was probably less then $10,000.
 
Jraef said:
Having spent about 6 years on the inside at CB manufacturers, I can attest to the fact that is is all "what the market will bear". My eye opener was on one major OEM project I was working on involving approx. $5 million in 480V breakers per year. They were offered up by the factory at a multiplier so low, I had to question my continued employment there on the basis of ethics. The price they COULD sell breakers for, and still make a profit, was less than 1/10th the cost that they NORMALLY sold them for to distributors. After all of that however, we LOST the business to a competitor willing to sell them for EVEN LESS than us!

Bottom line is that in the "gear" business, circuit breakers have been the cash cow that kept everyone afloat and with staff on hand to help people, etc. Do you complain that service "ain't what it used to be" from manufacturers? That's why. The erosion of those price levels by the likes of Amazon and others is cutting into the cash flow that was paying for that customer service...
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I've spoken to people who've said breakers cost pennies to make- even the big amp frame versions are in the dollars.

I'm convinced that we could safely use 240 volt panels boards on 277/480 without any hazard. Lets not kid ourselves that when you buy 480 volt gear you are actually buying a piece of 600/1000 volt gear with 6x transient withstand.
 
mbrooke said:
It is unfair, it gives some a boost while less so to others. Pricing should be up front and equal to all IMO excluding bulk pricing.
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How is it "unfair"? If people buy at Walmart they pay less for the same exact product than they do at target. Should Target be forced by some governmental entity to lower their prices to match Walmart?
 
mbrooke said:
It is unfair, it gives some a boost while less so to others. Pricing should be up front and equal to all IMO excluding bulk pricing.
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Big discount schedules go to people who move product; it's not arbitrary. Maybe they don't buy bulk on every PO, but these sorts of buyers regularly send POs over and at the end of the year, they've bought a ton of product. You can bet money that if you get a good multiplier on something, and then one year you migrate to something else, you'll lose your multiplier. Might take a bit, but your distributor will catch on eventually.

But of course that's not the only thing that goes in to it. If you buy a thousand breakers a year, your distributor will probably cut you a deal on conduit too even if you only buy 50 ft a year. May not be much, but it'll be better than street price. They have an interest in keeping you as a customer. If you start looking elsewhere, who knows what deals you can find, and suddenly your old distributor doesn't get POs anymore.

Also, it depends on your market. My last company got a crazy discount on proximity sensors because they were headquartered in the Detroit area, so there's a TON of volume moving through that area for all the auto plants and machine builders, which means there's a TON of competition for that business. My local rep down here said he'd never seen a discount that steep in this area.
 
petersonra said:
How is it "unfair"? If people buy at Walmart they pay less for the same exact product than they do at target. Should Target be forced by some governmental entity to lower their prices to match Walmart?
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No- but if you go to the same store I don't think one customer should get more of a discount and the other less outside of coupons or general sales applicable to everyone.
 
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