Why Does Mike Holt say heaters use high resistance

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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Per this link, http://www.mikeholt.com/download.php?file=PDF/MikeHoltBasicMath.pdf , Mike says "Appliances such as heaters and toasters use high-resistance conductors to produce the heat needed for the application."

Doesn't this seem counter intuitive because in order to produce more heat (by increasing current) for a given amount of voltage, you need to decrease the ohm of the resistor?

Thanks in advance
I did not look at your link, but I think you are looking at it from wrong perspective. Heat is produced in the conductor because it has resistance. We tend to want low resistance in a conductor that is only used to convey current from the source to the load, but if the intention of the load is to create heat - we want higher resistance in that portion of the circuit. If you could produce a perfect conductor that had no resistance at all it would be a very poor choice of material to use as a heating element.:happyyes:
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Per this link, http://www.mikeholt.com/download.php?file=PDF/MikeHoltBasicMath.pdf , Mike says "Appliances such as heaters and toasters use high-resistance conductors to produce the heat needed for the application."

Doesn't this seem counter intuitive because in order to produce more heat (by increasing current) for a given amount of voltage, you need to decrease the ohm of the resistor?

Thanks in advance

Because everything is a tradeoff. If the heater produces so much heat that it melts the conductors, you haven't built a heater, you have started a fire or at least tripped the OCPD.

A heater has to present a high enough resistance to the supply circuit and hence draw a low enough current that the capacity of the circuit feeding it is not exceeded.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
Because everything is a tradeoff. If the heater produces so much heat that it melts the conductors, you haven't built a heater, you have started a fire or at least tripped the OCPD.

A heater has to present a high enough resistance to the supply circuit and hence draw a low enough current that the capacity of the circuit feeding it is not exceeded.


Yes and when they say high resistance that's compared to a good conductor such as copper.

The average heating coil will have only a few ohms of resistance. It's not like putting a 1K ohm resister in the circuit. The heating coil material such as nichrome is designed to stand the high temperature and not oxidize the way copper would.

Think of why a bad connection produces heat.
 

PetrosA

Senior Member
Per this link, http://www.mikeholt.com/download.php?file=PDF/MikeHoltBasicMath.pdf , Mike says "Appliances such as heaters and toasters use high-resistance conductors to produce the heat needed for the application."

Doesn't this seem counter intuitive because in order to produce more heat (by increasing current) for a given amount of voltage, you need to decrease the ohm of the resistor?

Thanks in advance

It might be more specific to say that for a given amount of heat you need a specific amount of resistance in the conductor. So, in Mike's example if you were to have a 1000' piece of toaster element and you hooked it up, it will put out x amount of heat with a certain temperature on the element surface. If you shorten the element, it will offer less resistance and put out more heat at the element's surface. The trick is to figure out how much heat you need and engineer your length of toaster element to the correct length so that you toast your bread in a reasonable amount of time without burning the toast before the inside of the bread gets warm :)

It's also important to keep in mind that for any given conductor it's resistance value will change with temperature, so a toaster element will have a very different resistance value at room temperature than it does at full output.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
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Retired PV System Designer
A light bulb filament changes resistance dramatically from cold to hot. But a red hot nichrome wire will only change resistance a few percent from cold to hot.
A quartz lamp heater may behave closer to an incandescent bulb.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
It might be more specific to say that for a given amount of heat you need a specific amount of resistance in the conductor. So, in Mike's example if you were to have a 1000' piece of toaster element and you hooked it up, it will put out x amount of heat with a certain temperature on the element surface. If you shorten the element, it will offer less resistance and put out more heat at the element's surface. The trick is to figure out how much heat you need and engineer your length of toaster element to the correct length so that you toast your bread in a reasonable amount of time without burning the toast before the inside of the bread gets warm :)

It's also important to keep in mind that for any given conductor it's resistance value will change with temperature, so a toaster element will have a very different resistance value at room temperature than it does at full output.
Don't forget one other important factor in determining how much heat will be produced - applied voltage.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
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Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Don't forget one other important factor in determining how much heat will be produced - applied voltage.
But if you know the resistance and the current, you also know the voltage and the heat produced....
The applied voltage plays a large role in choosing the resistance when designing a heater, though.
:)
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
Per this link, http://www.mikeholt.com/download.php?file=PDF/MikeHoltBasicMath.pdf , Mike says "Appliances such as heaters and toasters use high-resistance conductors to produce the heat needed for the application."

Doesn't this seem counter intuitive because in order to produce more heat (by increasing current) for a given amount of voltage, you need to decrease the ohm of the resistor?

Thanks in advance

Power is i2R
No R, no power, no heat.

For most supplies, you can draw a limited current and voltage is fixed. All you then have to play with is the R.
 

aarena

Member
Location
morristown, nj
Power is i2R
No R, no power, no heat.

For most supplies, you can draw a limited current and voltage is fixed. All you then have to play with is the R.

Thank you everyone for the responses.

I suppose if you are comparing it to the resistance of the wire, you do want higher resistance for a heater. But when you compare it to another heather, the one with the lower resistance uses more power. even with i^2R, since current is dependent on resistance, the net effect from an increase in resistance results in lower power. for example;

voltage = 120
resistor 1 = 10ohm
resistor 2 = 5ohm

current for resistor 1 = 120/10= 12
current for resistor 2 = 120/5 = 24

power for resistor 1 = 12^2*10 = 1,440
power for resistor 2 = 24^2*5 = 2,880

resistor 2 uses more watts even thought its resistance is lower.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
Thank you everyone for the responses.

I suppose if you are comparing it to the resistance of the wire, you do want higher resistance for a heater. But when you compare it to another heather, the one with the lower resistance uses more power. even with i^2R, since current is dependent on resistance, the net effect from an increase in resistance results in lower power. for example;

voltage = 120
resistor 1 = 10ohm
resistor 2 = 5ohm

current for resistor 1 = 120/10= 12
current for resistor 2 = 120/5 = 24

power for resistor 1 = 12^2*10 = 1,440
power for resistor 2 = 24^2*5 = 2,880

resistor 2 uses more watts even thought its resistance is lower.

Of course it does. It's just simple arithmetic.
But I don't see what point you are making.
 

aarena

Member
Location
morristown, nj
That's why I like the flexibility of using V2/R instead of I2R when V is held constant.


even with v2/r, the higher the r the lower the power. the only way a resistor with a higher ohm that another can consume more power is if both resistor are in a series circuit because the current would be held constant.just to confirm

v = 120
r1 = 10ohm
r2 = 5ohm

i = 120/15 = 8

v1 = 8 * 10 = 80
v2 = 5 * 8 = 40

watt1 = 80^2 / 10 = 640
watt2 = 40^2 / 5 = 320


so in this case it is true. maybe that is what he is referring to...when the current is constant and voltage is variable, the higher the resistance, the higher the wattage. the problem with this is if a heather is the only load on a circuit, the current is the variable one
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
150110-1614 EST

aarena:

When you provide a reference to something specific that I should look at, as you did in your first post, then provide sufficient information that I can easily find the point where the information is located. Reference to a many page document is much too broad. I think I found your reference location at paragraph 1.18 .

Components that are very good conductors have a low resistance between two measurement points. You need to understand that resistance and conductance are relative measurements when trying to compare different materials and applications. Some materials with relatively low resistance for a given mechanical shape are: silver, copper, aluminum, gold, iron, and stainless steel.

In the "Handbook of Chemistry and Physics". 40th Edition 1958-1959 starting at page 2587 is a table of Resistivity for various materials. This probably can be found in the Index in any edition under "Resistivity of metals".

Code:
All the following are * 10^-6 ohm-cm

Silver 99.98%        at  0 C     =   1.468
Copper hard drawn    at 20 C     =   1.77
Gold pure drawn      at 20 C     =   2.44
Iron 99.98%          at 20 C     =  10
Mercury liquid       at 20 C     =  98.5
Mercury solid        at -183.5 C =   6.97
Nichrome             at 20 C     = 100
Steel vanadium       at 20 C     = 121

Graphite             at  0 C     = 800

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_resistivity_and_conductivity note that the units are different so the exponent changes.

What Mike was saying is that material for heater heating elements is of a higher resistivity than the material in wiring conductors because they serve two different purposes.

Suppose you have a perfect source voltage of 100 V that does not vary with a change in load current. Assume copper wire resistance is constant with temperature, and that #14 copper wire has a resistance of 2.5 ohms per 1000 ft. Connect 1000 ft to the 100 V source and the current is 40 A, and the power dissipated is 4000 W. Change the material to nichrome and the resistance is about 100/1.77 = 56.5 times greater, or 2.5 * 56.5 = 141 ohms. Now the current is only 0.71 A, and the power dissipated is 71 W. To make the nichrome #14 wire produce 1500 W we need to shorten it by 1500/71 = 21.1 times. This becomes a length of 1000/21.1 = 47.4 ft. Because of the physical characteristics of nichrome wire we can reduce its diameter to increase the resistance per foot and make a practical 1500 W heater with only a few feet of wire.

On the other hand we don't want to waste power in the distribution of energy to the heater so low resistance copper wire is used for the conductors from the voltage source to the heater. Silver would be better, but it is much more scarce and in turn higher in cost. For the 1500 W heater you might use #12 instead of #14 for distribution copper wiring.

In the 1870s Edison understood that to build a practical power distribution system that the loads needed to be in parallel and the distribution of energy needed to be at high voltage and have a low source impedance. Many theoretical people at the time wanted to operate in a maximum power transfer mode.

However, today in a solar system you do want to operate in a maximum power mode. This is a different criteria. As an excerise determine what value of source resistance will produce maximum power transfer to a fixed resistance load.

.
 
Last edited:

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
150110-2032 EST

Time limit.

Edited version.

150110-1614 EST

aarena:

When you provide a reference to something specific that I should look at, as you did in your first post, then provide sufficient information that I can easily find the point where the information is located. Reference to a many page document is much too broad. I think I found your reference location at paragraph 1.18 .

Components that are very good conductors have a low resistance between two measurement points. You need to understand that resistance and conductance are relative measurements when trying to compare different materials and applications. Some materials with relatively low resistance for a given mechanical shape are: silver, copper, aluminum, gold, iron, and stainless steel.

In the "Handbook of Chemistry and Physics". 40th Edition 1958-1959 starting at page 2587 is a table of Resistivity for various materials. This probably can be found in the Index in any edition under "Resistivity of metals".

Code:
All the following are * 10^-6 ohm-cm

Silver 99.98%        at  0 C     =   1.468
Copper hard drawn    at 20 C     =   1.77
Gold pure drawn      at 20 C     =   2.44
Iron 99.98%          at 20 C     =  10
Mercury liquid       at 20 C     =  98.5
Mercury solid        at -183.5 C =   6.97
Nichrome             at 20 C     = 100
Steel vanadium       at 20 C     = 121

Graphite             at  0 C     = 800

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_resistivity_and_conductivity note that the units are different so the exponent changes.

What Mike was saying is that material for heater heating elements is of a higher resistivity than the material in wiring conductors because they serve two different purposes. For a heater you want high resistivity material to minimize size and cost, and in distribution wiring you want low resistivity material to reduce mass, cost, and wasted energy.

Suppose you have a perfect source voltage of 100 V that does not vary with a change in load current. Assume copper wire resistance is constant with temperature, and that #14 copper wire has a resistance of 2.5 ohms per 1000 ft. Connect 1000 ft to the 100 V source and the current is 40 A, and the power dissipated is 4000 W. Change the material to nichrome and the resistance is about 100/1.77 = 56.5 times greater, or 2.5 * 56.5 = 141 ohms. Now the current is only 0.71 A, and the power dissipated is 71 W. To make the nichrome #14 wire produce 1500 W we need to shorten it by 1500/71 = 21.1 times. This becomes a length of 1000/21.1 = 47.4 ft. Because of the physical characteristics of nichrome wire we can reduce its diameter to increase the resistance per foot and make a practical 1500 W heater with only a few feet of wire.

On the other hand we don't want to waste power in the distribution of energy to the heater so low resistance copper wire is used for the conductors from the voltage source to the heater. Silver would be better, but it is much more scarce and in turn higher in cost. For the 1500 W heater you might use #12 instead of #14 for distribution copper wiring.

In the 1870s Edison understood that to build a practical power distribution system that the loads needed to be in parallel and the distribution of energy needed to be at high voltage and have a low source impedance. Many theoretical people at the time wanted to operate in a maximum power transfer mode.

However, today in a solar system you do want to operate in a maximum power mode. This is a different criteria. As an excerise determine what value of source resistance will produce maximum power transfer to a fixed resistance load.

.
 

iceworm

Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
Location
North of the 65 parallel
Occupation
EE (Field - as little design as possible)
.... maybe that is what he is referring to...when the current is constant and voltage is variable, the higher the resistance, the higher the wattage. the problem with this is if a heather is the only load on a circuit, the current is the variable one

Try this.:
For a 1000W heater at 125V, I = 8A, R = 15.6 ohms. This follows right from similar calculations to what you did.

So, use #12 Cu wire. Resistance of #12 is ~2 ohms/1000 ft. A 1000W heater takes (15.6/2) x 1000 ft = 7,800 feet of #12 Cu wire. That's a lot of wire to handle for a heater. And you couldn't tell the wire temperature was any warmer than ambient.

Try #20 NiChrome wire. The resistance is about .4 ohms/foot (400 ohms/1000 ft) So for 15.6 ohms, we only need 40 feet. Wrap the wire in to a helix, around some insulators, pack in a 12" cube and you have a heater. Hook to 125V, it will develop 1000W and get red hot.

A 125V, 1000W heater has the same 15.6 ohms of heater element no matter what wire one uses. With 2 ohms /1000 feet it takes 7800 feet. With 400 ohms/1000 feet, it takes 40 feet.

ice
 

GoldDigger

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Staff member
Location
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Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Looking at the resistivity table, I was surprised how high the resistivity of mercury is, given the use of mercury wetted relay contacts. But then I realized that the mercury layer is so thin that the bulk resistivity is not a significant factor to the contact resistance while the increase in contact area definitely is.
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Per this link, http://www.mikeholt.com/download.php?file=PDF/MikeHoltBasicMath.pdf , Mike says "Appliances such as heaters and toasters use high-resistance conductors to produce the heat needed for the application."

Doesn't this seem counter intuitive because in order to produce more heat (by increasing current) for a given amount of voltage, you need to decrease the ohm of the resistor?

Thanks in advance

Look at it from this perspective. P(power in watts)= E(volts)xI(amperes). This is watts law.
As an example let's say the voltage is 120v and the current is 20a, 120x10=1200w. Increasing the current at the same voltage increased the wattage.
Now, using ohms law E=IxR(resistance in ohms). Using I=E/R if we say the voltage is 120v and the resistance is 100ohms the resultant current will be 1.2amperes. If you increase the resistance the current will decrease.
The reference to "high resistance" is relative. What is high resistasnce?
With a resistance if 100ohms with 120v applied the resultant amperes is 1.2.
Take that 1.2a and insert it is watts law, 120v X 1.2a=144 watts.
To decrease the watts current must be decreased which means that you must increase the resistance if the voltage was kept at 120v.
To increase that watts you must increase current which means a lower resisance.
Remember that in you have 120v available and you want to increase the hear output you must change thevhestinhg element with a lowered resistance. Need less heat is required the element must be replaced with one that has a higher resistace to reduce the current.
Of course if your were to see increase the voltage on a given resistance the current would increase along with the watts. But, the heating device may not be able to handle the addition heat and be destroyed.
There is an equation that combines watts, ohms, volts, and amperes that could be used but it is easier to explain the relationship this way.
Remember when there is a reference to "high", high compared to what?
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
150111-0927 EST

Suppose you want to make a 1500 W heater using copper wire.

Assume a vertical plate 120" (10 ft) by 16" (1.33 ft) can dissipate 1500 W with a temperature rise of 50 C in free air (no forced air). A 50 C rise in a room at 25 C is well within the long term life of high temperature enameled wire.

One turn around this plate is 32" (2.67 ft). Thus, for 1000 ft of wire there are 375 turns, or 375/120 = 3.12 turns per inch. Flattened out this 0.32".

For 1500 W at 120 V the resistance is 9.6 ohms, and 12.5 A. Number 20 copper wire would be a good approximation to obtain this resistance. No problem doing this with a single layer coil. The wire diameter is about 32/1000".

Using a single side PC board with 2 mil copper and some obvious values in the calculator at http://www.eeweb.com/toolbox/external-pcb-trace-max-current you will also find that this type construction would be feasible. But you would do it as a double side board.

.
 
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