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Why ECs shouldn't do voice and data wiring.

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iwire said:
Out of all the colors of the rainbow the NEC tells how only two must be used, white, green & bare. All other colors are up for grabs.
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Ok maybe i should have said the brass screw.


iwire said:
My thoughts would be it's just another day at work.

All electricians wire a building differently, from circuit layout, to the colors used for 3 and 4 way switches, do they bring the feed to the lighting outlet or switch box, do they join lighting and receptacles or keep them separate, do they pigtail or do they feed through the devices.

So the fact someone after me may have to take moment to figure out what colors I used for what does not concern me in the least.

Try troubleshooting a fire alarm system that has been modified 1/2 dozen times with 3 different wiring methods with colors swapping at each junction point and then maybe I will begin to feel bad for you. ;)

Bob
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Maybe thats where the 2 jobs differ and where the attitude evidently shared by a lot of electricians towards VDV work comes from, most phone techs wire a building the same way, the w\bl is pair 1 and where I expect to cross connect to on the distribution point end of the station cabling when installing a phone.
That's not saying I have not ran into some odd situations where I have had to follow what someone else did that was not what I expected.
But I do have my suspicions as to who installed that cabling.:wink:
 
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480sparky said:
Not quite.

110.15, 200.6, 517(A)(5), 231.56 and 424.35 may interest you.
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Aha! And to think I believed iwire
 
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480sparky said:
Not quite.

110.15, 200.6, 517(A)(5), 231.56 and 424.35 may interest you.
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You think this is my first day with the NEC? :grin:

I am well aware of those code sections and it still does not change my reply.

Only white green and bare are 'reserved' colors.

Regardless of say 517.160(A)(5) I can still use orange and brown for other uses.

Regardless of 424.35 I can still use yellow, blue, red, brown orange for other uses.

I might have a hospital that uses yellow for isolated systems, yellow for 120 volt heating cables and yellow as C of a 480 system.

The NEC has always refused to mandate colors for GP circuits and feeders.
 
iwire said:
Well for the brass screw the NEC allows any color at all except white, green or bare. :)
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I didn't ask what the NEC says. You didn't answer my question.
 
I just don't get the point you low voltage guys are trying to make? If you don't like the existing install, re-wire the place... but don't complain here about how EC's make your life so terrible... bunch of cry babies...
 
Customer has a show-room built specifically for his product, pays the EC (One of those "While i'm here" sells) to install data jacks every 6 feet around his showroom. The customer deliberately said ethernet, even has the invoice from the EC that says "Ethernet Jack". Communication Check.

Why is it when I show up to install phones that all the ethernet jacks are looped? Granted, atleast he followed the color-codes and looped all the right colors. I am now stuck holding the bag of crap, the customer is wondering why the phones wont work, and the EC is saying he wasn't told that it needed to be homerun. On top of that he used a screwdriver to punch down the wires because evidently a $70 punch tool was too high-dollar for a job he charged $150/drop to do.

Granted this is an ignorant, or uninformed, or uneducated, or un-something-or-other EC who shouldn't have done the job. As much as I'd like to say he's a rare breed and will be going hungry next week he is not. This is common.

You have been trained, schooled, worked, experienced, etc etc on mains wiring standards and practices. Pulling a wire is pulling a wire regardless of wether it is 12/2 or Cat5e, and yes any monkey can do it with a day or two of training. The difference here is in the termination and network. What do you terminate in mains wiring that in any way shape or form resembles datacom terminations? In what way does a 120v+ AC 60hz mains circuit resemble a -48v DC balanced circuit? It is not rocket science to figure out that maybe Datacom and Mains wiring are different and thus should be treated as such.

If telephone wiring is so easy and profitable then how come verizon rolls their own trucks and no one calls the EC when they want a switchboard or work done in the CO.

The real crime or shame is that the majority of the network and phone installs that are done by EC's are inside wiring for small to medium sized business' where everything you would need to know about datacom wiring has classes taught at home depot free for the DIYer where they DO say to homerun and use Cat3 for voice and Cat5 or better for data etc.

The point we are trying to make is if you are not going to be competent at what you install then dont install it. Why hire an accountant to be your lawyer? Same thing.
 
hbiss said:
It was really aimed at Hal and some of the others that seem like they are going to need high blood pressure meds if they see other ECs daisy chaining POTs.

Ok, it looks like some of you are still not getting it. Maybe I need to point out the obvious- the sun doesn't rise and set on you ECs. The planets don't revolve around you. Believe it or not when you finish whatever you do SOMEBODY ELSE is going to come along and have to deal with whatever you created. With Telcom and data that's ALWAYS going to be the case. Your work is going to be used by someone who knows far more than you do about it. There IS a standard, and if you don't know what it is you don't belong doing the work PERIOD!

THAT'S what this topic is about.

I feel so bad for doing such an evil thing.

THAT'S what pisses me off- the smart ass "I don't give a damn, I'll do whatever I want that will make me the most money" attitude that I'm seeing. You are part of the problem and not a professional if you don't at least acknowledge that there is a problem and take steps to clean up your act.

-Hal
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Here's how I see the "problem." When a customer (residential, say a 6000 sq. ft. custom home) asks for 2 POTS lines and 8 various jacks - you think an EC is obligated to install 2 pair of cat5 x 8 homeruns and the GC must dedicate a "datacom" closet. Regardless of how much the customer was actually sold.

The thought is ludicrious. And may I add - the reason I feel you demand this "standard" is because the mechanically challenged so-called "specialists" you hire for the installations of upgrades, (in the one in a hundred chance a residential customer wants something more elaborate) are generally clueless in the art of snaking walls, floors and ceilings. If it can't be punched down they have to switch mode from "specialized technician with a manicure" to quasi-residential old work wireman. There's a reason it's a punch-down tool and a mini mag that's strapped to their belt and not a keyhole saw and an auger bit.

I base this opinion on my years of experience with what we call "data b&tches" and the hbiss-y fit I read in post #1.
 
It so easy a Caveman can do it!

It so easy a Caveman can do it!

Here's a reference as to when the change from looping telephone wiring should have taken place for Home Builders.

"In the summer of 2000, a new rule from the Federal Communications Commission became active. It requires that all of the telecommunications wiring in new residences be Category 3 or better. Category 3 is a cable that includes 2 to 4 twisted pairs of copper wire enclosed in a plastic sheath. Builders are now required to use this cabling in place of the old 4-wire telephone cable. An article in the July 17, 2000 Nations Building News states "The new FCC requirements will give home owners a basis for making a civil claim against builders or contractors if they experience telecommunication problems --- due to noncompliant telephone wiring." This means that, as a minimum, builders will need to assure that their subs are installing Category 3 cable."

"A wiring system using special telephone/data cables (Category 3 and preferably Category 5 cables -- explained later in this report) and special coaxial cable (RG-6) will meet the communication needs of most families now and in the foreseeable future. The key to making this wiring useful now and in the future is to wire with a separate cable run from a distribution panel to each outlet. If this wiring is done as a system, including the panel, the cables and the outlets and documentation, then it is often called a structured wiring system."

Here's a link to the entire pdf file that shows proper cabling methods etc. For those who wanna properly install Voice Data Video in residential homes.
http://www.toolbase.org/PDF/DesignGuides/WiringReport.pdf
 
logic

logic

Unionbro576

How dare you attempt to add facts, logic and common sense to this issue. Can't you tell that it has no place here. Please direct your comments toward how to properly wire a double-wide or a one bedroom flat house. There are many eyes viewing this information that need to learn to walk before they take the leap to running.

I think I read someplace that this website is not for DIYer's. I doubt if that will be a problem in this thread. Even a Monkey with lunchtime training from HomeDepot knows "looping" or "daisy chaining" has departed from general practice years ago.
 
suttle

suttle

You can call suttle and ask them for thier wallet card which has many valuable telco/data punchdown color codes and information. No need to memorize just pull out the card and start punching down as long as you are not colorblind. Lets not forget that it was Monkeys that used to fly our spaceships. Hey you gotta start somewhere.
 
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Stop the Madness guys. Surely there has to be union tade schools or some vocational school that can bring any contrator up to speed.
 
Its so easy a Caveman can do it!

Its so easy a Caveman can do it!

Good one LV grider!

I have to admit, i just cant rationalize why a reasonable tradesmen would continue to do prehistoric installations, based on its the way I do them, and having knowledge of the proper installation practice for Voice and/or Data. Which leads me to believe that person isnt a true professional in thier field. So to Hbiss, I can only say that not all Electrical Contractors are created equally which is quite obvious, so please do not put us all into the same category of not being competant enough to install VDV.
 
unionbro576 said:
I can only say that not all Electrical Contractors are created equally which is quite obvious, so please do not put us all into the same category of not being competant enough to install VDV.
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Agreed.

I also agree that following behind a trade that just screwed up the job, can make my job difficult or almost impossible, can cost me money, and can ruin my good mood.
 
"data b&tches"
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oh that's delicious! and now my new fav. phrase. :D seriously, when is this thread going to die!!!!!?!?!?! no one is changing anyone's mind here. untrained LV guys can screw it up just as bad as an untrained EC. and that's all this is; untrained persons. Could you imagine what kind of job an LV crew would do on an electrical installation? Chances are we f*ck up "your" work a lot less than you would ours. now lets all just chill and kick it like tae bo.
 
brantmacga said:
seriously, when is this thread going to die!!!!!?!?!?! no one is changing anyone's mind here. untrained LV guys can screw it up just as bad as an untrained EC.
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It's going to die here and I get to have the last word. ;)

I understand the LV contractors side, they have worked hard to be proficient at doing the work professionally and for that they have been making high profit margins. :cool:

Now more ECs are doing V&D, including it in the bid with the line volt work and maybe taking some shortcuts. The LV guys see 'their' high profit work getting taken away and are simply not happy about it.

All I can say is Get Over It ECs are going to do V&D installs and not all of them are going to do a good job at it.
 
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