Why GFCIs

[iwire]

I think employees and cleaning crews need better training across the board.

I think cleaning crews in English speaking businesses should speak English but I think we will both be waiting a long time for this.

But bottom line is employee 'A' should not have to die due to employee 'B' lack of care.

 

[mbrooke]

In the case of these deli machines with the missing EGC, a fault will still cause a shock but the GFCI will hopefully limit the duration of that shock assuming they are still functional. This is where the new UL self test requirements come into play. An intact EGC would remove the hazard immediately via a tripped OCPD.

Myself, I can credit a receptacle GFCI for sparing me from receiving a serious shock due to someone's hacked up jobsite modification to a large Greenlee bender I was using. I did get shocked but it was quickly interrupted by the GFCI before it really began to hurt and leave after affects.

And in other posts you were against self test GFCIs

 

[mbrooke]

I think cleaning crews in English speaking businesses should speak English but I think we will both be waiting a long time for this.

But bottom line is employee 'A' should not have to die due to employee 'B' lack of care.

Hence where company safety polices come in. :thumbsup:

 

[peter d]

And in other posts you were against self test GFCIs

:roll::happyno:

I'm against the idea that they self test, but do not self lockout when they are no longer operable.

 

[mbrooke]

:happyno::happyno:

I have no issue with GFCI protection other than the controversial requirement for dishwashers as well as everything located within 6' of a residential sink.

Neither do I, but GFCIs fail. An intact EGC will always trump a GFCI. There is self test, but how well will that work with solvents and greace going into that receptacle?

My take on this is that the setup is not tough enough for the environment. As is wet use covers might be more appropriate when cleaning starts.

 

[mbrooke]

:roll::happyno:

I'm against the idea that they self test, but do not self lockout when they are no longer operable.

I think we can agree here. That is where self test falls short. And even then I could argue the mechanical mechanism freezing over.

 

[iwire]

Hence where company safety polices come in. :thumbsup:

And here again you break from reality.

 

[mbrooke]

And here again you break from reality.

Current reality. But that doesnt mean reality not be fixed.

 

[iwire]

Neither do I, but GFCIs fail. An intact EGC will always trump a GFCI. There is self test, but how well will that work with solvents and greace going into that receptacle?

My take on this is that the setup is not tough enough for the environment. As is wet use covers might be more appropriate when cleaning starts.

Try to stay focused, if you want to talk about bubble covers start your own thread.

 

[iwire]

Current reality. But that doesnt mean reality not be fixed.

But the reality goes back to $ so it will not be fixed.

 

[mbrooke]

Try to stay focused, if you want to talk about bubble covers start your own thread.

Your viewing my concepts as separate but they are all interconnected. A GFCI that gets hit with water and grease is more likely to fail. In this case a GFCI is needed more then ever yet is in an environment where failure is higher.

You work in a lot of grocery stores, right? Have you seen them use hoses to wash an area?

But the reality goes back to $ so it will not be fixed.

Human life and lawsuits cost more $$$ latter.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

But if this is so common, how will it be addressed?

210.8(B)(2).

 

[ptonsparky]

Put the gfci where it is not subject to water and grease.

 

[mbrooke]

210.8(B)(2).

I know, but GFCIs themselves can and do fail. Being a rough environment, I can see the GFCI failure rate as higher. Id be tempted to mandate pin and sleeve type receptacles in cases like this.

 

[mbrooke]

Put the gfci where it is not subject to water and grease.

Good point, that slipped my mind. :slaphead:

 

[Curious nerd]

Damaged cords

Damaged cords

I've been shocked by picking up the middle of an extension cord on a wet day. There was no visible break, but there might have been pinhole-sized openings. A lot of industrial appliance cords are in alarming condition. At one place I worked I lost count of how many duct tape wraps the cleaning crews had on their vacuum cleaner cords.

For the hazard of human contact with leakage current from a cord, GFCIs are a better tool than EGCs.

 

[norcal]

I think employees and cleaning crews need better training across the board. I see this with other equipment and it always amazes me. Then again I am a bit more aware of electricity so handling cords comes naturally.

I still think we should have implemented this:

And staff/ employees/ associates depending on the buzz words of HR, would just leave the broken ground pins in place so they would not have to mess with those pesky shutters.:happysad:


Never try to idiot proof anything, they just make bigger idiots.

 

[mbrooke]

I've been shocked by picking up the middle of an extension cord on a wet day. There was no visible break, but there might have been pinhole-sized openings. A lot of industrial appliance cords are in alarming condition. At one place I worked I lost count of how many duct tape wraps the cleaning crews had on their vacuum cleaner cords.

For the hazard of human contact with leakage current from a cord, GFCIs are a better tool than EGCs.

I agree, EGCs do little if anything when a cord is damaged.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

:roll::happyno:

I'm against the idea that they self test, but do not self lockout when they are no longer operable.

I think we can agree here. That is where self test falls short. And even then I could argue the mechanical mechanism freezing over.

With the self testing receptacles, there is at least one brand that locks out when the device fails its self test.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I know, but GFCIs themselves can and do fail. Being a rough environment, I can see the GFCI failure rate as higher. Id be tempted to mandate pin and sleeve type receptacles in cases like this.

I am not aware of anything that cannot fail
With pin and sleeve you just move the point of damage to the cords or the connections in the connector.