Why is residential wiring known as single phase?
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Rick Christopherson
Senior Member
Why do you keep ignoring what is being said, and keep focusing on what isn't being said? The contention is your "absolute" wording. Do you not understand what that means?
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The only common connection between the two loads is a hot, why wouldn't you use it as a reference?
this forum has seen many troubleshooting issues where the poster just used N or G as a voltage reference, only to find out the reference was actually not part of the circuit, like with a floating neutral or an ungrounded system. Eventually the real problem was diagnosed by using multiple references and comparing the expected values.
But again you are thinking of the neutral as the only point of reference. Have you ever worked with the 60/120V circuits used in recording studios? How about multi-tapped control power transformers with both 24V and 120V outputs?
It happens because the two load currents oppose each other, not because the voltages do.
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is what you posted.
So post what you think is a correctly labeled diagram.
Rick Christopherson
Senior Member
Can you not get it through your thick head that I don't have problem with your diagram. There is nothing wrong with an unlabeled diagram. It is your absolute statements made against an unlabeled diagram that is wrong. Even making absolute statements against a fully labeled diagram is questionable, but is at least somewhat defendable.
You're so headstrong in trying to force the world to analyze a system using your analysis method that you can't comprehend the difference between analysis tools and defining the system. Analyze the system whatever way you want, but quit defining the system based on your chosen analysis tools.
No. Just as the most logical since it is the only single common point.
Recording studios, no.
But multi-tapped transformers, yes. Including some at upwards of 100MVA.
For the resistive loads I gave, the voltages and currents are in phase for each half of the circuit. Restive loads do that.
The current in the neutral cancels because of the 180deg displacement.
Fine.
Cite any absolute statement I made that is absolutely wrong.
Be succinct and direct.
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- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Did they have common points that were not neutrals?
But, based on the notations I placed on your diagram, the voltages do not have a 180? shift, they are additive (Vbn ->Vna), and yet the currents still cancel.
No double negatives were required.
The physics of the transformer were considered.
Resistive currents are in-phase with the voltages.
Each node has currents that enter and leave.
One diagram, two logical interpretations.
So, other than the placement of your scope leads, where is the proof that a real shift occurs?
Oxymoron comes to mind.
I employed none.
That there are a huge number of circuits in operation that work as a result of that 180deg displacement.
Rick Christopherson
Senior Member
I did quote you, and I did state what was wrong when this topic came up earlier today. Either it is not sinking in or you are being deliberately obtuse and/or deceptive.
It is well known that I do not have the patience for stupid people, and I make no apologies for that. I don't know if you are one, but right now you are presenting yourself as one. If you are not competent enough to comprehend the discussion you are engaging in, then it is probably best to ignore you again.
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- Wisconsin
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- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Does the range example I have often cited, have a common conductor between the two loads? Is it the neutral of the voltages?
Other than to say Vbn = -Vnb?
Actually I was trying to address the points I raised in a previous postings.
Although now that you bring it up. You posted a nice graph and current values for a 3-load circuit. I don't think I saw your 2-load results? David and I discussed his results, which brought up the issue of a node with two currents entering but none leaving.
Hundreds, going on thousands, of posts and I have yet to see a single one saying these circuits, like the rectifiers you are rightly proud of, cannot work. I said there appears to be a displacement based on the way you choose to reference your wiring (not the actual wiring itself). Choose a different reference and there appears to be no displacement. Are you saying my notations, showing 0? displacment, on your diagram, are incorrect?
Trivia:
Trivia:
When discussing phase shifts, one knows or should know that only the fundamental frequency carries a phase shift. One should also know that dwelling on such minutiae does not add any value to the discussion.
Trivia:
When discussing phase shifts, one knows or should know that only the fundamental frequency carries a phase shift. One should also know that dwelling on such minutiae does not add any value to the discussion.
gar
Senior Member
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rattus:
Right on. Can the orhers see it? From the earliest days of a triode oscillator there had to be the realization of the phase shift between the grid and plate of the triode.
.
rattus:
Right on. Can the orhers see it? From the earliest days of a triode oscillator there had to be the realization of the phase shift between the grid and plate of the triode.
.
jumper
Senior Member
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Insults and disparaging remarks are a sign of a desperate man......:roll:
Bes' challenge is to post math and diagrams, well.......
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- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Different argument/discussion. Can you show where someone has said that a shift is always impossible?
Besoeker posted a diagram without notations and said it 'showed' a shift. I added notations to that diagram that showed there is no phase shift. I included logical reasons to use my method which refuted issues I had noted.
Calling the man desperate for charging the phase shift arguement with deception, obfuscation is an ad hominem attack.
Look at the truth. How many in the audience are only more confused by being told "there is a phase shift". It's like being told "it's by smoke and mirrors" to which more of the audience will say " ah ha". It's the eureka effect, the discovery of useful knowledge. For most of the audience being told there is a phase shift will sound like something to be afraid of, something bad, something that may be exceptionally difficult to understand
The reality is that reversing the polarity of the load relative to the winding turn direction causes an artifact that can be measured or described as a 180 deg phase shift. The phase shift arises from the polarity reversal relative to the load and is a special case. The phase shift is not native to the operation of the subject single phase transformer, which is what the audience is afraid of or confused about. Saying yes there is a phase shift happening does nothing to relieve this confusion.
And a source of confusion it is, since the transformer with no external conection offers two indentical, matched, "in phase" windings that can be connected in a variety of ways. If the electrician knows how the artifact of a phase shift occurs, by reversing the polarity of the load relative to the winding turn direction, he has a better chance of understanding the physical reality of why the wires are bolted here or there.
The paradigm is for the mental comfort of the concerned person. Is this right or will it go poof.
Notice that the same thing happens with two batteries in series, which is an appeal to logic, a broad, true, and useful description. The usefulness of the description makes it science. If the description does not convey understanding, it fails the test of usefulness.
Rick Christopherson
Senior Member
Not only that, but he "Jumpered" to conclusions without actually reading what I wrote. There were no disparaging remarks in what I wrote. He assumed that there were because he didn't read it carefully. I write for a living. I choose my words carefully.
Here we go again, trying to apply electronics to prove this point again.
I said this 5 years ago and I'll say it again it is the people with a strong education in electronics causing this
confusion about single Phase power being two phase. This was never a problem before the internet became
popular and Electronic techs. and Electricians started talking together about it.
I studied Electronics also 40 plus years ago. I have for gotten most of it.
But I do remember studying phase inverters for Class C or push pull Amplifiers.
And if you Techs are honest enough and are willing to eat some crow you would admit that the so called
Phase inverter rather it be a transformer with a center tap or amplifier element such as a triode vacuum tube
or a transistor, it does no more than invert the input signal or reverses its polarity.
The output of the so called phase inverter in a audio amplifier does not shift the phase it reverses the polarity.
There is no phase shift it is inverted.
I realize you where and are being taught this.But it is a polarity inverter ,but please give it some serious thought.
And have enough nerve to admit single phase is just that ?single phase?.
I said this 5 years ago and I'll say it again it is the people with a strong education in electronics causing this
confusion about single Phase power being two phase. This was never a problem before the internet became
popular and Electronic techs. and Electricians started talking together about it.
I studied Electronics also 40 plus years ago. I have for gotten most of it.
But I do remember studying phase inverters for Class C or push pull Amplifiers.
And if you Techs are honest enough and are willing to eat some crow you would admit that the so called
Phase inverter rather it be a transformer with a center tap or amplifier element such as a triode vacuum tube
or a transistor, it does no more than invert the input signal or reverses its polarity.
The output of the so called phase inverter in a audio amplifier does not shift the phase it reverses the polarity.
There is no phase shift it is inverted.
I realize you where and are being taught this.But it is a polarity inverter ,but please give it some serious thought.
And have enough nerve to admit single phase is just that ?single phase?.
As ever, you exude charm.
My diagrams and words are examples of what I do in my day job.
Design, manufacture, test, ship, commission, and support.
Stuff like this:
Getting the design or calculations wrong isn't an option. And being thick wouldn't excuse it. But hey ho.....on we go.
And you?
I'm also a moderately practical fellow.
This:
To this:
in a weekend. Including the painting, the laminate floor, a new commode (not shown), the plumbing for it etc. The taps and waste for the basin were done the following weekend.
Simple point. I don't do just theory.
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