Why is the Code so big?

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charlie

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This post is from my response to another question and I really am interested in your opinions especially if you are an AHJ.</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why can't the AHJ use a bit of common sense and ignore things of a minor nature without another rule to "require" or "permit" something?</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do you feel like everything should be black and white with no gray areas?</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do you feel like "approved" should be removed from the NEC so everything would have to be listed?</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How important is a non-enforceable section in the Code? Generally, it doesn't go into the Code if it can't be enforced by the AHJ.</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Feel free to answer other questions that I didn't ask along the same line. :D
 
Re: Why is the Code so big?

You go Charlie!

I am not an AHJ,but,if we take to heart every question and reply in this forum you'd probably be to scared to even install a receptacle,much less anything of importance.Common sense is the key and there are a lot of grey areas when it comes to electrical work,that is obvious, or there would not be as many posts as there are.
 
Re: Why is the Code so big?

Just out of curiosity, how "big" is the NEC?

How many pages, total, including appendices, index, etc?

What format - 8 1/2" x 11", 6" x 9", etc?

Ed
 
Re: Why is the Code so big?

What we need here is to have bphgravity (member 402) submit a post on this thread, even if just to say ?Hi.? Then we should take a look at his standard forum signature block. ;)
 
Re: Why is the Code so big?

charlie,

Ok, I'll take a shot at trying to answer your questions (in a slightly different order :) ).

</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do you feel like everything should be black and white with no gray areas?</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
No. In fact, I don't think that would be possible as long as the code is written in english (or any other human language)
</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do you feel like "approved" should be removed from the NEC so everything would have to be listed?</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
No. That would add too much cost and red tape to the industry.
</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How important is a non-enforceable section in the Code? Generally, it doesn't go into the Code if it can't be enforced by the AHJ.</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
I'm not sure I completely understand the question :)
</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why can't the AHJ use a bit of common sense and ignore things of a minor nature without another rule to "require" or "permit" something?</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
AHJ's have to. I do it every day. But I am sometimes nagged by the thought, "am I letting something go here that could cause a problem in some way that I haven't realized?". I dislike code sections that have so much gray area that experienced inspectors and/or electricians using "common sense" come up with widely differing opinions on what should or shouldn't be permitted/required.
 
Re: Why is the Code so big?

Ed, all of the following are in an 8 1/2 X 11 in. format:</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The NESC has 280 pages</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The 2002 NEC has 711 pages</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The 2005 NEC has 772 pages</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The 1959 NEC is 4 1/8 X 6 3/8 in. and has 447 pages</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I was going to go back to the 1999 and just realized that I don't have a paper copy of the 1999 (the computer doesn't have page numbers). :D

(I had to correct the 2005 NEC page numbers and I added the 1959 NEC)

[ October 01, 2004, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: charlie ]
 
Re: Why is the Code so big?

Oh, and.. Why is the Code so big? We all know how many words it takes a lawyer to say even the simplest things. Once adopted, the NEC is a legal document after all :)
 
Re: Why is the Code so big?

The 1999 NEC has 644 pages.
The 1981 NEC (small format) has 690 pages.

Steve
 
Re: Why is the Code so big?

Remember the 1996 NEC vastly expanded the conduit fill tables in Chapter 9, this added over 100 pages the NEC. Also each edition adds chapters for new systems, such as fuel cells and TVSS's
 
Re: Why is the Code so big?

In response to charlie b's request, here is the signature block bphgravity uses:

?It can be debated that all of the requirements of the NEC, when traced through a chain of events, may relate to an electrical hazard.? NFPA 70E
 
Re: Why is the Code so big?

Our trade is based on theory, so nearly every topic and issue will have gray areas. But I agree that the code, once adopted, becomes a legal document. With that, many things must be spelled out to ensure the purpose and intent of the code is met.

My 1947 NEC which followed the 1940 is 384 pages total.

[ October 01, 2004, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: bphgravity ]
 
Re: Why is the Code so big?

The reason it?s so big is that, despite 90.1(C), many proposals are still trying to make the NEC a design manual and too many of them are accepted. I have yet to meet a plan checker or inspector (even the good ones) who fully understands how to properly evaluate electrical area classification beyond the simplest figures or how to recognize proper relay coordination.

I have chronic sinusitis. I?ve had it since my early 20?s, so I have lots of ?experience.? I know what medicines I need and when to take them. I know when over-the-counter medicine and rest is enough. I know when I need prescription antibiotics. Since I know I?m allergic to penicillin, I also know I need a different broad-spectrum antibiotic. I know a lot of things about it - but I still can?t write a prescription. I usually have to go through two licensed professionals, a physician and a pharmacist.

About 30 years ago, a pharmacist questioned one of my prescriptions and called the doctor about it. To this day, I have no idea what the question was, or even if the prescription was changed, but I do know the pharmacist distributed what the physician ultimately prescribed. The pharmacist may still have questioned the doctor?s judgment; I don?t know. For whatever reason, the pharmacist apparently felt a professional responsibility to question the prescription but his own liability was limited to the distribution of the legally prescribed medicine whether it was correct in his opinion or not.

I have yet to see a US domestic law, statute or code that gives ?governmental? AHJs the power to enforce that doesn?t also absolve them from personal and corporate liability.

The City of Los Angeles? municipal building code is a typical example:
SEC. 92.0139. NON-RESPONSIBILITY OF CITY. Neither the City of Los Angeles, nor any department, board, commission, officer or employee thereof shall be held liable or responsible for any damage or injury caused by or resulting from the issuance of any permit, or any inspection or approval made under the provisions of this Code.
Most inspectors (actually all but one) that I?ve dealt with over the years have been competent - some exceptionally so. However, the current CBO I?m dealing with is now batting ?0 for 10?. He tried to enforce Art 324 (we?re using the 1996 NEC on this project) on a cable tray installation yesterday. He?s been grasping and straws for several months now. A month ago he forced our contractor to replace a compliant temporary branch circuit with a non-compliant one. I must admit it wasn?t that serious, but you should have seen his performance when we made him write a 90.4 ?special permission? waiver for the installation - he didn?t even want to appear responsible for his decision ? but he couldn?t admit he was wrong either.

The problem is that, even if someone did get hurt, the CBO has no personal liability ? but as a PE and the owner?s rep I still do. When I was reminded my empoyer gave me a letter of indemnity, I said I knew they would pay for my defense and pay any fines but would they guarantee I?d still have a license and do jail time for me, if necessary.

I prefer the European inspection model where Code inspection is more a ?Safety Quality Control.? The inspector, ?inspects? and informs those with liability of what the inspector believes is safety non-conformance, but enforcement and correction is left to the judgment of those who will hold risk and liability in the final installation. The ?owner, operator, designer, installer, insurer, etc.? All of the ?stake-holders? have to accept the installation.

?But who is responsible for the unsuspecting and untrained public?? (I didn?t even know to ask if there might be something wrong with the prescription.) That?s why our inspector colleagues are still essential - especially for residential work and areas with public access. I don?t know what the pharmacist spotted; but, since I?m still here, I assume that the ultimate resolution worked. Nevertheless, it was the physician who made the final call.

The problem on my side of the table is that today too many PEs are ?stamps for hire? that don?t realize or care what their safety responsibilities are. The only reason for licensing PEs (or Doctors) in the first place is for safety, especially for the public. There are ?Dr. Feelgoods? out there too. But at least Doctors and PEs are personally legally responsible for their work ? including incompetence.

[ October 01, 2004, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: rbalex ]
 
Re: Why is the Code so big?

As time goes by things have a way of working them selves out.Look at a grounded switch 1st we had to then don`t have to now we have to have a grounded switch.But items out ther contradict the common scence part.Cooper makes a switch that has a plastic yoke but still has to be grounded :D
 
Re: Why is the Code so big?

Originally posted by charlie:
This post is from my response to another question and I really am interested in your opinions especially if you are an AHJ.</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why can't the AHJ use a bit of common sense and ignore things of a minor nature without another rule to "require" or "permit" something?

    I don't quite understand the second part about another rule. If you mean overlooking a #10 taped white because you ran out of wire OR using a white PVC coupling instead of a gray one? Then OK, not a problem. Just not on every job you do.</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do you feel like everything should be black and white with no gray areas?

    yes I definitely do, as much as possible. it wouldn't help though. Here we have too many people who don't even own a codebook let alone know the code. I get a lot of negotiating(nice word for arguing) based on things that have nothing to do with the code or the "I always thought that..." Even when the code is black and white on something compliance is a problem because of ignorance.</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do you feel like "approved" should be removed from the NEC so everything would have to be listed?

    If you mean substitute listed for approved or identified or marked it would help. On one hand how are we the AHJ supposed to judge the interrupting rating of a OCPD? Test reports from a manufacturer? What if that testing standard is no longer valid or up to date? On the other hand I don't think that tie wire has to be listed for conduit support through steel studs. So yeah I would draw the line somewhere in between.</font>
  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How important is a non-enforceable section in the Code? Generally, it doesn't go into the Code if it can't be enforced by the AHJ.

    The FPN in Art 90 about providing for future expansion is worthless. It has been tried to be enforced in the past though. I think it's a pretty obvious concept for a competent designer or electrician.. Do you have another example of a non-enforceable section? Perhaps the performance of the fault current path in Article 250. I can't ask for calc's because I'm not an engineer and can't check calc's that are not covered by the code. So what he puts on paper has to be ok.</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Feel free to answer other questions that I didn't ask along the same line. :D
edited to italicize and replace disappearing text

[ October 01, 2004, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: sandsnow ]
 
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