Why use ground wire. Isn't neutral the same?

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skyline77

Member
Hi,

Since neutral wire is grounded i.e. has the same potential as the ground. Why then we run three wires and not only line neutral and bond the receptacle ground with the neutral?
As in the attached photo, a guy did this an it's working with no problems.

I told him it's wrong but he said why?
 

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Occupation
EC - retired
Think metallic tool with three wire cord

Where will the current go if the neutral to the device becomes compromised?


To/through you via the EG and Earth.

You will also be in parallel to the neutral wire each time you pull the trigger. Most of the current will return via the neutral but some will return via you. Putting a long extension cord into the mix and standing in mud with wet shoes will put more of the current through you.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
In theory, you're right. The problem is that theory does not take into consideration things like voltage drop, poor connections, damaged devices and wiring, etc. The service coming into our homes doesn't have separate grounded and grounding conductors. In fact, the neutral itself is what defines electrical ground. Same for older 3-wire major appliance circuits, where the neutral was permitted to also serve to ground the appliance (and not the other way around).

First, electrical devices with exposed conductive parts need to be grounded so an accidental internal contact will open short-circuit protection equipment. Second, a poor connection in a grounded circuit conductor could allow wiring that is expected to be at zero volts to become energized. Third, allowing a grounded circuit conductor to serve as an equipment grounding conductor means exposed conductive parts could become energized, creating a shock hazard.

Years ago, a customers son was severely injured when he touched the range and sink simultaneously. I found that the neutral of the 3-wire cord had pulled out of the crimped-on ring terminal, energizing the range cabinet through the clock and lights, which stopped working a few days prior. There was 120 volts between the range and ground, and 240 volts between the range and one of the lines. The now-required 4-wire circuit would have prevented the shock.

The only thing the jumper does is allow the receptacle to test as if it was properly grounded. Again, yes, in theory, the jumper seems like a better idea than no ground, but it can introduce possible hazards that having no grounding conductor won't. Remember, electrical systems have evolved over the years. We had no way of starting out with the systems we have today without having gone through the experiences as needs and equipment have grown.
 

jap

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrician
I found that the neutral of the 3-wire cord had pulled out of the crimped-on ring terminal, energizing the range cabinet through the clock and lights, which stopped working a few days prior. There was 120 volts between the range and ground, and 240 volts between the range and one of the lines.

This exact scenario happened to me about 20 years ago except I was troubleshooting a dryer where neutral didn't make contact when it was plugged in. I got between it and the cold water line coming up next to it.

One of the worst hits I've ever taken.

JAP>
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
The Grounded conductor does carry current back to transformer source.- The grounding conductor is not an intended current carrying conductor , its purpose is to create the quickest path to earth for stray voltage induced from lighting strikes so that electrical wiring & equipment are not damaged.
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
The Grounded conductor does carry current back to transformer source.- The grounding conductor is not an intended current carrying conductor , its purpose is to create the quickest path to earth for stray voltage induced from lighting strikes so that electrical wiring & equipment are not damaged.
No.

Look up the definition of "Effective Ground-Fault Current Path", "Ground-Fault Current Path" and "Grounding Conductor, Equipment (EGC)".
 

jap

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrician
The Grounded conductor does carry current back to transformer source.- The grounding conductor is not an intended current carrying conductor , its purpose is to create the quickest path to earth for stray voltage induced from lighting strikes so that electrical wiring & equipment are not damaged.

The Equipment Grounding Conductor is not intended to carry current unless there is a fault condition that is.

JAP>
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
(A) Grounded Systems.
(1) Electrical System Grounding. Electrical systems that are
grounded shall be connected to earth in a manner that will limit
the voltage imposed by lightning, line surges, or unintentional
contact with higher-voltage lines and that will stabilize the voltage
to earth during normal operation.
 

mwm1752

Senior Member
Location
Aspen, Colo
a normal breaker will not trip if the hot wire is tied to an electrode as an electrode @ 25 ohms would generate an approx 4 amp load. the Nuetral/grounded conductor that returns back to transformer is where the fault will trip. We do connect the EGC to the GC at 1 point only. I stand corrected as my comments did refer to the electrode system's purpose.
 

jap

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrician
(A) Grounded Systems.
(1) Electrical System Grounding. Electrical systems that are
grounded shall be connected to earth in a manner that will limit
the voltage imposed by lightning, line surges, or unintentional
contact with higher-voltage lines and that will stabilize the voltage
to earth during normal operation.

Yes, but, simply connecting the grounded conductor to earth does not put it at the same potential to be able to clear a fault.

JAP>
 

RRJ

Senior Member
Location
atlanta georgia
Occupation
Electrician
The Grounded conductor does carry current back to transformer source.- The grounding conductor is not an intended current carrying conductor , its purpose is to create the quickest path to earth for stray voltage induced from lighting strikes so that electrical wiring & equipment are not damaged.

The purpose of the equipment grounding conductor is to carry the current back to the breaker so it can trip and clear the ground fault.


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jap

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrician
The purpose of the equipment grounding conductor is to carry the current back to the breaker so it can trip and clear the ground fault.


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Not true.

JAP>
 

RRJ

Senior Member
Location
atlanta georgia
Occupation
Electrician
Please explain how is not true!


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I guess I could have said carring the fault back to the source increasing the demand on the breaker and reaching its maximum fault rating and tripping?


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jap

Senior Member
Occupation
Electrician
I guess I could have said carring the fault back to the source increasing the demand on the breaker and reaching its maximum fault rating and tripping?


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Well almost.

It does carry the fault current back to the "source" not the breaker, but, hopefully it doesn't use up all of the breakers fault rating before it trips.

If it did, the breaker would more than likely self destruct in the panel.

A breaker's fault rating capacity and its trip rating are 2 different things.

JAP>
 

RRJ

Senior Member
Location
atlanta georgia
Occupation
Electrician
Well almost.

It does carry the fault current back to the "source" not the breaker, but, hopefully it doesn't use up all of the breakers fault rating before it trips.

If it did, the breaker would more than likely self destruct in the panel.

A breaker's fault rating capacity and its trip rating are 2 different things.

JAP>

Thanks


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GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
The neutral carries normal current, and since any normal current will produce a voltage drop, connecting the neutral to exposed sheet metal is guaranteed to offset that sheet metal from ground by up to several volts. Using the EGC instead creates an equipotential grid of all exposed metal parts, hopefully also equipotential to remote earth.
 
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