Why use WYE in residential apartment buildings

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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I notice the difference in resistive heating devices like water heaters and electric ranges. Not a fan. I've used boosting transformers in the past to compensate for low voltage,
Boost transformer is one way to deal with it. Can also get ~25% larger unit to get similar output, or in some cases you can get actual 208 volt rated units. Cove heaters is one type that is commonly available in 208 and 240 volt units @ same wattages, as well as 120 and 277 volts.
 

mbrooke

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1/(1 - 25%) = 133%, so you'd want a 240V unit with a rating ~33% bigger than the desired result on 208V.

Cheers, Wayne


Good point. This had actually slipped my mind. So would a 208 volt range need a bigger circuit? I somehow get the code does not address this directly, but I could be wrong.
 

GoldDigger

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Good point. This had actually slipped my mind. So would a 208 volt range need a bigger circuit? I somehow get the code does not address this directly, but I could be wrong.
Technically, a given heat output range wired with 208V instead of 240V elements would have a higher amperage at 208V than the 240V unit would at 240V. The code load calculations all deal with nominal power. The conversion to load amps will be different between a 208V and a 240V environment.
On the other hand, if you use a multi-voltage range and connect it to 208V the simple calculation of calculating the 208V current using the 240V power will exaggerate the required current.
 

mbrooke

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Technically, a given heat output range wired with 208V instead of 240V elements would have a higher amperage at 208V than the 240V unit would at 240V. The code load calculations all deal with nominal power. The conversion to load amps will be different between a 208V and a 240V environment.
On the other hand, if you use a multi-voltage range and connect it to 208V the simple calculation of calculating the 208V current using the 240V power will exaggerate the required current.

Would this mean I need a 60 amp OCPD? I have to admit I'm sheltered in this regard.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Would this mean I need a 60 amp OCPD? I have to admit I'm sheltered in this regard.
Wouldn't it depend on the kW rating combined with allowed demand factors?

Off top of my head I think you can treat up to 12 kW range as a 8 kW load. 8 kW @ 208 volts is still under 40 amps.
 

mbrooke

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Wouldn't it depend on the kW rating combined with allowed demand factors?

Off top of my head I think you can treat up to 12 kW range as a 8 kW load. 8 kW @ 208 volts is still under 40 amps.

Most likely not that you mention it. I'll have to re-read article 220.
 

DrSparks

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Boost transformer is one way to deal with it. Can also get ~25% larger unit to get similar output, or in some cases you can get actual 208 volt rated units. Cove heaters is one type that is commonly available in 208 and 240 volt units @ same wattages, as well as 120 and 277 volts.
Yeah I've seen 208v baseboard units.

Sent from my BE2028 using Tapatalk
 

hillbilly1

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That makes no sense. I can place an entire complex on one phase and rebalance if needed by moving other single phase loads. It’s fairly easy to balance at the substation level.
I put in a 1200 amp single phase service to a rural store many years ago, the owner was too cheap to put in three phase even though it was available, so the poco did as you said, they moved all houses to the other two lines.
 

mbrooke

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I put in a 1200 amp single phase service to a rural store many years ago, the owner was too cheap to put in three phase even though it was available, so the poco did as you said, they moved all houses to the other two lines.


How much more would have 3 phase cost?
 

hillbilly1

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Location
North Georgia mountains
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Owner/electrical contractor
How much more would have 3 phase cost?
Quite a bit, used six switch rule, poco transformer was quite a ways from the service, and small. AFC was under 22 k. They wanted to run two sets of 4/0, met with the engineer, and convinced him to run three sets of 350. Another reason the owner wanted single phase was the poco charged residential rate instead of commercial per KW. Way cheaper!
 

mbrooke

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Quite a bit, used six switch rule, poco transformer was quite a ways from the service, and small. AFC was under 22 k. They wanted to run two sets of 4/0, met with the engineer, and convinced him to run three sets of 350. Another reason the owner wanted single phase was the poco charged residential rate instead of commercial per KW. Way cheaper!

In that case it makes sense at least as to why a business owner would choose single phase.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Quite a bit, used six switch rule, poco transformer was quite a ways from the service, and small. AFC was under 22 k. They wanted to run two sets of 4/0, met with the engineer, and convinced him to run three sets of 350. Another reason the owner wanted single phase was the poco charged residential rate instead of commercial per KW. Way cheaper!
My guess is actual demand was well under 1200 amps as well or else you may not gotten a large enough single phase transformer all that easily by POCO.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
My guess is actual demand was well under 1200 amps as well or else you may not gotten a large enough single phase transformer all that easily by POCO.
Previous 400 amp service was pulling 390 amps per leg at peak times. They doubled the size of the building. The owner was buddies with the poco engineers. They bought all their hunting supplies there.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Parallel?
Depends on POCO. Almost never see that around here. Even open delta systems seldom see with any significant load. On newer services they want to put it across all three phases, though there are some existing older installs that today they wouldn't let customer get new service set up that way.
 

Bjenks

Senior Member
Location
East Coast of FL
I know that it is common to use two legs of a 208/120V three phase service to create 'single phase' service for apartment buildings.

I am curious as to why this is done.

It would seem to me that the individual residence is better served by a 120/240V single phase service, and that the large collection of residences could be served by three single phase supplies.

If a single 'service' is required, or of 'house loads' such as elevators require 3 phase, then a 'hexaphase' system would fit the bill, providing 120/240V for residences and 208/120V for 3 phase loads. Phase current for the same total kVA would be halved, possibly reducing available fault current.

Just a random musing thinking about @Tainted project.

Jon
I can tell you why I design them with 208/120 3 phase and that is because I need 3 phase for the elevator house power. So I use a meter center with the tenant stacks on the right and a house power stack on the left. Also many units now require a 100% outside air unit and that it typically 3 phase power. Once I need three phase I find it best to send 120/208 single phase to the tenant space too.
 
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