Will tariffs kill solar? No politics, please

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China will fold on tariffs because they can’t afford to lose our business.
What exactly does that mean to "fold on the tariffs"? Are you saying that the Chinese govt will subsidize the products (or offer to re-imburse an importer for any tariffs) so that after whoever is importing them pays the tariff the cost ends up the same?

Insurance companies hate rooftop solar because it doubles or triples the cost to replace a roof. Got a customer right now that the insurance company refuses to pay for reinstalling the solar panels, so they are sitting in a pile on the ground because it will cost the homeowner way more to re-install them than the ROI.
Just curious, what are these situations where insurance companies are paying for a roof replacement? Has the roofing system failed prematurely? If so and its still under warranty, wouldnt the roofing manufacturer be paying? Seems like that sort of thing is quite rare.
 
What exactly does that mean to "fold on the tariffs"? Are you saying that the Chinese govt will subsidize the products (or offer to re-imburse an importer for any tariffs) so that after whoever is importing them pays the tariff the cost ends up the same?


Just curious, what are these situations where insurance companies are paying for a roof replacement? Has the roofing system failed prematurely? If so and it’s still under warranty, wouldnt the roofing manufacturer be paying? Seems like that sort of thing is quite rare.
1.They will reduce the tariffs on our products, don’t know where you get subsidizing from.
2. Ever heard of natural disasters? Hurricanes? Hail? Tree’s falling on roofs? Insurance pays for that.
 
1.They will reduce the tariffs on our products, don’t know where you get subsidizing from.
2. Ever heard of natural disasters? Hurricanes? Hail? Tree’s falling on roofs? Insurance pays for that.
1. Ok so you are proposing they will reduce their tariffs
(or offer some other concession) and thus the US will be happy and not impose any tariffs on them?

2. In those situations isn't the solar system chowder too then? I suppose maybe if it's metal you would want the entire sheet replaced so the solar system would be in the way.
 
My thoughts: First, I dont think tariffs will be that high. I think he is rapidly losing this negotiating tactic after threatening and then backing down over and over. Second, if we assume whatever the tariffs settle at is "not that high" (pick a number, say 15%), does that really increase the cost of a system much? Say modules are 30 cents/watt now, and an additional 15% of that makes them 34.5 cents/watt. A total system is maybe $3/watt.
Remember back about 15 years ago when it was about $7/watt?
It's still a lot cheaper than it used to be.
 
A friend of mine who is a design manager at a major solar company tells me that they have secured enough modules for the rest of 2025 but inverters and BOS are all going up. He speculates that their system prices may need to increase by 10-15%.
 
I thought that one of the infrastructure bills passed a couple years ago gave favorable tax treatment for installing domestically-produced equipment. And in response, some panel production was already being initiated in the US. Of course, any raw material used in those panels that is imported would be impacted.
It’s been too long since this transpired for me to remember any more than that. Maybe I dreamt the whole thing. 😆
No, not a dream. The inflation reduction act added a 10% tax credit bonus if commercial solar projects meet domestic content requirements. This passed in August and 2022, and solar manufacturers started producing more components in US starting as early as fall 2024, and some have just started shipping US made product this quarter. Solaredge now manufactures inverters and optimizers in Texas and Florida, and their US made inverter is pretty much the same price as the one that was made in China. SnapNrack is also manufacturing racking in the US now. Keep in mind this was a law, and so should have more longevity that the manufacturers can plan around. The tariffs are controlled by one man's view that can change day to day, so hard for manufacturers to plan for.
 
No, not a dream. The inflation reduction act added a 10% tax credit bonus if commercial solar projects meet domestic content requirements. This passed in August and 2022, and solar manufacturers started producing more components in US starting as early as fall 2024, and some have just started shipping US made product this quarter. Solaredge now manufactures inverters and optimizers in Texas and Florida, and their US made inverter is pretty much the same price as the one that was made in China. SnapNrack is also manufacturing racking in the US now. Keep in mind this was a law, and so should have more longevity that the manufacturers can plan around. The tariffs are controlled by one man's view that can change day to day, so hard for manufacturers to plan for.
Thanks for confirming.
 
I can say I am seeing clients in the C&I and large scale space having to rethink their projects, so it's having an impact for them, and therefore me.
 
Curious what the "peaker" factor of nuclear is... I know utilities have a grudge against solar and wind because they're so variable, and coal generation in particular is very bad about handling dynamic demand changes, while natgas can adapt quickly enough to accommodate those swings.
Neither nuclear or coal is dispatchable, it's base load generation. That's why we have NatGas peaker plants.
 
I am concerned that the escalating trade war with China will kill the solar industry in the US. Without getting in to the politics of the situation (please!) and simply looking at the tariffs at face value, will the tariffs on Chinese imports raise the prices on solar modules to US solar companies so much that it will render PV projects in this country economically nonviable?
Sorry did not read any of the thread. Will read it later.

Tariffs are not the major factor in the equation. Fit the larger structure into a model or paradigm and then see how it looks.

Base case: excess or surplus of productive capacity. Chine excels at this. This is the norm for this era.

Premise.: China needs factory jobs to keep its population busy (if not contented). The alternative, which would happen in deflation, is closing of the excess productive capacity (factories), unemployment, and idled population given incentive to (internal China) regime change. (not politics, economics)

China needs exports to keep the population busy, occupied. They cannot idle them all nor will they.

The other thing China needs is to stimulate their internal domestic demand (by Yuan printing and you will see this ). but even the money printing will fall short of keeping them all busy and China will have the option of printing Yuan to subsidize exports, probably what the Japanese have been doing forever.

China has the problem of needing to keep its population busy working, which it cannot do fully with its own internal domestic demand. China needs exports more than we need the imports, and (competitive) Yuan devaluation is on the table. Even if the money printing goes to pay the tariff (very likely result).

Consumers should have no fear of paying the tariff themselves. Demand will be hit, much less, resulting in lower liquidating prices for those consumers still standing (lower rates coming too).

This wave is deflationary. Tariffs are not the cause or effect in this.

There is an alternate scenario which is historically proven true. In times of deflation when surplus of productive capacity is too much, war is used to (relieve) the negative aspects of having too much (stuff). In theory the other guy's productive capacity would be burned down leaving yours still standing and working. In practice, the wartime deficit spending is just another stimulus of internal domestic demand (for both sides). Risk or time for war is high in deflationary times. Money printing is the cure in either scenario. Until the balance between demand and productive capacity is restored.
 
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A friend of mine who is a design manager at a major solar company tells me that they have secured enough modules for the rest of 2025 but inverters and BOS are all going up. He speculates that their system prices may need to increase by 10-15%.
Do you think that will directly impact their overhead on the material part of the project or is that a direct to consumer cost?

As in, to stay competitive, are they noticing their competitors hiding that by trying to keep the final costs the same to win the project?

I remember labor costs being a part of rising installation costs through the pandemic and I think contractor availability has started to normalize. Businesses don't have the same extra cash they used to and so I think the market is also going to be more competitive and increased material costs will just have to fit into that project cost equation.
 
Do you think that will directly impact their overhead on the material part of the project or is that a direct to consumer cost?

As in, to stay competitive, are they noticing their competitors hiding that by trying to keep the final costs the same to win the project?

I remember labor costs being a part of rising installation costs through the pandemic and I think contractor availability has started to normalize. Businesses don't have the same extra cash they used to and so I think the market is also going to be more competitive and increased material costs will just have to fit into that project cost equation.
Solar companies are and always have been working with very slim margins, and many of them failed during and after the pandemic. Residential PV has already fallen off a cliff for many of them, in large part due to interest rate increases. I don't think that price increases are avoidable.
 
I really don't know anything about tariffs but presumably that little sticker on products 'made in your country here' is where the tariff applies?
Lets take a quick poll of everyone here and your recent PV panel purchases where were you panels made?
What does the 'made in ' sticker say on the panels in your shop now?

I am not a panel buyer nor PV system designer myself but work on the electrical side of solar design occasionaly all the panels I see around here are labeled 'made in Mexico';
Here are a few:

Enphase Energy
-> Monterrey, Nuevo León, Mexico

Hanwha Q Cells
-> Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico

Solartec
-> Puebla, Puebla, Mexico

Neoen Solar
-> Monterrey, Nuevo León, Mexico

Canadian Solar (surely must be made in Canada but surprise )
-> Ciudad Juárez, Chihuahua, Mexico
 
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I really don't know anything about tariffs but presumably that little sticker on products 'made in your country here' is where the tariff applies?
Lets take a quick poll of everyone here and your recent PV panel purchases where were you panels made?
What does the 'made in ' sticker say on the panels in your shop now?

I am not a panel buyer nor PV system designer myself but work on the electrical side of solar design occasionaly all the panels I see around here are labeled 'made in Mexico';
Here are a few:

Enphase Energy
-> Monterrey, Nuevo León, Mexico

Hanwha Q Cells
-> Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico

Solartec
-> Puebla, Puebla, Mexico

Neoen Solar
-> Monterrey, Nuevo León, Mexico

Canadian Solar (surely must be made in Canada but surprise )
-> Ciudad Juárez, Chihuahua, Mexico
Interesting, I didn't know so many solar panels were made in Mexico. Actually glad to hear that they're made there instead of China. A year ago I bought some modules that were made in America, solar4america, but I just recently learned they shut down.
 
Solar companies are and always have been working with very slim margins, and many of them failed during and after the pandemic. Residential PV has already fallen off a cliff for many of them, in large part due to interest rate increases. I don't think that price increases are avoidable.

I thought that was because of the change in rebates. Solar was always expensive to install and before states offered energy incentives it was not viable for most.

I think that it has just fallen back into that category due to the drop of in incentives and energy buy backs. I don't think that had to do with margins.

Plus some solar companies "failed" under one name to avoid liabilities like roof leaks to pop up under a different name.
 
to avoid liabilities like roof leaks
IMHO Aerospace engineers could get solar-array rack systems listed without roof penetrations.

Shape leading edge of racks, and counterweights on opposite slope, like an upside down aircraft wing for negative lift.

May hold better in hurricanes than any other roof-mount gimmick.
 
Enphase has recently moved at least some manufacturing to Texas. They have had manufacuring in both Mexico and China and will certainly continue to have to source some parts and materials from China, even if they're not having product assembled there.
 
I really don't know anything about tariffs but presumably that little sticker on products 'made in your country here' is where the tariff applies?
Lets take a quick poll of everyone here and your recent PV panel purchases where were you panels made?
What does the 'made in ' sticker say on the panels in your shop now?

I am not a panel buyer nor PV system designer myself but work on the electrical side of solar design occasionaly all the panels I see around here are labeled 'made in Mexico';
Here are a few:

Enphase Energy
-> Monterrey, Nuevo León, Mexico

Hanwha Q Cells
-> Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico

Solartec
-> Puebla, Puebla, Mexico

Neoen Solar
-> Monterrey, Nuevo León, Mexico

Canadian Solar (surely must be made in Canada but surprise )
-> Ciudad Juárez, Chihuahua, Mexico
I don't believe Enphase makes modules, they make microinverters and energy storage and Balance of systems equipment. They offer domestic content versions of their products to qualify for the 10% adder. Hanwha Qcells does have some US manufacturing of modules.
 
My thoughts: First, I dont think tariffs will be that high. I think he is rapidly losing this negotiating tactic after threatening and then backing down over and over. Second, if we assume whatever the tariffs settle at is "not that high" (pick a number, say 15%), does that really increase the cost of a system much? Say modules are 30 cents/watt now, and an additional 15% of that makes them 34.5 cents/watt. A total system is maybe $3/watt.
Aluminum, Steel, hardware, copper wire, inverters, MLPE, distribution switches, breakers, fuses, .... a lot of products can be affected depending on how this all settles out. And I have never installed a solar module that cost $0.30 per watt. Quality modules from reliable manufacturers cost more. There is also the fees on cargo ships from other countries. Right now it is 10% minimum from all countries, with higher for some.
 
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