Will the term Neutral be defined in the 2005 NEC?

[bennie]

Re: Will the term Neutral be defined in the 2005 NEC?

Another corruption of the term "neutral conductor" is the common misconception that the conductor can only be identified as a neutral conductor when it is part of a Edison system.
When installed with one circuit it is not a neutral conductor, Hogwash, baloney, bs, what a bunch of crap.

In electrical technology, all conductors, solidly connected, become one conductor for purposes of identification. All conductors connected to the neutral conductor bus, are therefore neutral conductors. When connected to the ground bus they are ground conductors. When connected to the active hot bus they are hot conductors. I don't see a problem with that terminology.

 

[Ed MacLaren]

Re: Will the term Neutral be defined in the 2005 NEC?

Another corruption of the term "neutral conductor" is the common misconception that the conductor can only be identified as a neutral conductor when it is part of a Edison system. When installed with one circuit it is not a neutral conductor, Hogwash, baloney, bs, what a bunch of crap.

Following that reasoning, black would be “neutral” with respect to white, and white would be neutral with respect to black.

In electrical technology, all conductors, solidly connected, become one conductor for purposes of identification. All conductors connected to the neutral conductor bus, are therefore neutral conductors.

By this reasoning, in a grounded system, you would call the grounding electrode conductor a neutral conductor, because it is connected to the neutral conductor!
Or would you call the neutral conductor a grounding electrode conductor, because it is connected to the grounding electrode conductor? Which would be correct?

Bennie, with all due respect, I am going to use your own terms – Hogwash, baloney, bs, what a bunch of crap.
That would be the end of effective communication. No one would know what wire the other was talking about.


The adjective “Neutral” is most commonly used to denote some “thing” that is “between” at least two others, and “favoring” neither, such as a country that does not support any of the combatants in a war.

Other examples –
1. Someone that does not side with either party in a controversy.
2. The center ice zone in a hockey arena.
3. Not in any gear in a manual auto transmission.
4. A "conductor (when one exists) of a polyphase circuit, or a single phase 3-wire circuit, which is intended to have a voltage such that the voltage differences between it and two or more ungrounded conductors are approximately equal in magnitude and equally spaced in phase."

Ed

 

[bennie]

Re: Will the term Neutral be defined in the 2005 NEC?

When someone refers to "the neutral conductor" on a two wire circuit, is it a problem to understand?

 

[bennie]

Re: Will the term Neutral be defined in the 2005 NEC?

I do stand corrected on one statement. I should have wrote "all load carrying conductors" connected to the neutral bus are therefore neutral conductors.

 

[bennie]

Re: Will the term Neutral be defined in the 2005 NEC?

I detect a note of sarcasm in both electron and
ed's challenge to my opinion. Are you the same person?

 

[Ed MacLaren]

Re: Will the term Neutral be defined in the 2005 NEC?

No Bennie, I am not the same person as Electron. I will sign my name to anything I say.

I hope I didn't sound too sarcastic, but I am also an opinionated old cuss.
Even though I sometimes disagree with what you say, you have my respect.

Hope you are feeling OK these days.

Ed

 

[bennie]

Re: Will the term Neutral be defined in the 2005 NEC?

Thanks ED. I too respect not only your technical knowledge but your skill with graphics.

I also agree with you, I don't believe everything I say either

Regards.

Bennie

[ July 29, 2003, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: bennie ]

 

[electron]

Re: Will the term Neutral be defined in the 2005 NEC?

bennie:

No sarcasim intended, just asking for some clarification!

After reading through the posts on this board, I too have learned to appreciate some of your remarks, except for those that really don't answer the question(s), and your remarks with flames, and unnecessary words!

Come to the point and be nice about it, when I disagree with someone I say:

"I would like to add to _____________ comments if I may."

I am an old guy too, and I have similiar experiences in the industry, as many others here, and my first NEC was the 1965 edition, and the 1965 edition of the NYC Code.

I have a great respect for those who can supply the references to the questions asked here, and on other boards.

I too have a vast collection of old electrical books, and would be interested in hearing about those you have collected.

I read in one of my old books last night, that the terms "low potential, and high potential, and even extra high potential" were use in early codes.

I can remember when that word was removed from the code a while back too, and now they use voltage instead.

At one time they wanted to define "extra low, low, medium, high voltage, and extra high" voltage in the code (I forgot the ranges) and that would have been difficult for the electricial inductry to understand.

Right now, the term "High Voltage" is defined in 490.2 and is used on a requirement for signs "Danger High Voltage Keep Out" there was still the word "Warning" used in Article 225.

In the meantime, do you have the electronic version of the NEC, or PDF files of the 96, 99, or 2002 NEC's?

I will call you, if you send me a private message with your phone number.

I sometimes have time after the end of the day, and if you are in Oregon? that would be easy for me because my 9 PM, is your 6 PM.

I also agree with you Ed, and I enjoy seeing your art work too!

 

[brian john]

Re: Will the term Neutral be defined in the 2005 NEC?

A thought on books (electrical technical):

I enjoy books, owning them, reading them and sometimes loaning them, but usually that means loosing a book and I hate that!

My point is if anyone on this list has a particular book they would not be without (besides the NEC) a favorite book please post or a must read in their opinion.

I do try to read all technical manuals I can get my hands on. Any recommendations?

 

[bennie]

Re: Will the term Neutral be defined in the 2005 NEC?

Ground Currents and the Myths of Stray Voltage, by O.C. Seevers P.E. About $24.

 

[ronaldrc]

Re: Will the term Neutral be defined in the 2005 NEC?

I don't understand the reasoning here of course thats nothing unusual.

If I have a 120/240 volt single phase service with line 1, line 2 and a neutral.I think some here saying if I don't have both lines with the neutral we don't call it a neutral?

I know with just one line it can't technically be a neutral, if not a neutral what do we call the white in a three wire circuit that is with two conductors and a eq. grd. do we call it the grounded conductor?

Why not call it the neutral throughout whole system would be less confusion?

Ronald

 

[bennie]

Re: Will the term Neutral be defined in the 2005 NEC?

Ronald: My thoughts exactly. Consider this scenario...When the branch circuit taps off to one outlet you have the "ed" and "ing" ground conductor. Connect the "ed" conductor to the bright screw terminal. Connect the "ing" conductor to the green terminal. Now, can it get any more ridiculous than that?

 

[ronaldrc]

Re: Will the term Neutral be defined in the 2005 NEC?

Hello Bennie hope you're feeling great, I agree its hard enough to keep up with the electrical terms as is let alone the Eds and ings.

Ronald

 

[charlie]

Re: Will the term Neutral be defined in the 2005 NEC?

Strain at the gnat and swallow a camel. If the service is a 124/240 volt single phase then the neutral is the grounded conductor . . . period. It doesn't matter if it is just a two wire circuit or a three wire circuit.

This concept doesn't have to be difficult.

 

[bennie]

Re: Will the term Neutral be defined in the 2005 NEC?

Ronald: One is a past tense, the other is present tense, neither one are related to electrical technology by definition.

Grounding is a verb, and past participle, and has no definition related to electricity.

Grounded is a verb, present tense, and past participle, and not related to electrical technology.

The use of grounded and grounding are essentially in the category of "slang terms".

A conductor connected to the earth, is a ground conductor, a grounded conductor,and a grounding conductor.

It is, has, and can be. I need more oxygen.

 

[ronaldrc]

Re: Will the term Neutral be defined in the 2005 NEC?

Charley I disagree, This is one reason if I am wiring a BLDg. with a 4 wire single phase sub panel.

And my helper calls me and wants to know how to hook the wires.

To get the point across which would be easier?

1.-The green and bare wires are grounds and whites are neutrals.

2.-The green and bare wires are the grounding conductors and the white the grounded conductors?

Ronald

 

[bennie]

Re: Will the term Neutral be defined in the 2005 NEC?

Also, on a high leg delta, the neutral is between phases A and C. The conductor is not serving the wild leg B phase.