I am working on a federal project in Michigan. The job is moving forward and they want to complete the work in the winter. Alot of my work is outside. Light pole bases, concrete encased duct banks. I am subbing all of the concrete work out so the charge for there winter conditions is up to my sub. The question I have is there a listed labor increase that deals with winter conditions. We have been asked to give the cost for winter construction and when I do I would like to have some back up. There is diffently an increase in labor or working in the winter. Any ideas.
winter conditions
- Thread starter Jodonnell
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K8MHZ
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrician
I have never heard of such a thing and I have lived in Michigan all my life. Our wages certainly never increased.
Also, you never know what weather you will get in Michigan. It can go from sunny and 65 to minus 10 and blizzard conditions in a matter of hours.
The west side is the worst as Lake Michigan causes 'lake effect' weather. For working outside, lake effect sucks. The whole state can be sunny and all along the lakeshore it can be a white out, pouring rain or an ice storm.
Insulated jeans are your friend. They are very warm and still comfortable when inside where it's not cold.
You will find that since work is sparse in the winter many will be more than happy to work for their normal fees. Some, in fact, end up taking less just to get the work.
Welcome to Michigan.
Also, you never know what weather you will get in Michigan. It can go from sunny and 65 to minus 10 and blizzard conditions in a matter of hours.
The west side is the worst as Lake Michigan causes 'lake effect' weather. For working outside, lake effect sucks. The whole state can be sunny and all along the lakeshore it can be a white out, pouring rain or an ice storm.
Insulated jeans are your friend. They are very warm and still comfortable when inside where it's not cold.
You will find that since work is sparse in the winter many will be more than happy to work for their normal fees. Some, in fact, end up taking less just to get the work.
Welcome to Michigan.
I have also lived in Michigan my hole life and I know if takes more labor to complete work in the winter. You just dont move as fast when there is snow on the ground and the wind is blowing. I am being asked to raise my price to compensate for this. I am defiantly not going to tell them that there will be no increase in the price. That is why I am asking if there is a listed labor increase for winter conditions. Any suggestions????
dmagyar
Senior Member
- Location
- Rocklin, Ca.
It takes longer in the cold
It takes longer in the cold
The transition from doing the work to bidding the work is the question. No one will dispute that the times are different from just a few years ago and you'll find alot of men/women willing to work in the cold vs starving. That said working in freezing weather takes its toll and does take longer. Most factors that I've seen add about 50% to the original time necessary for a task in extreme weather equalling a 1.5 X factor.
I'd also be concerned that you're sub for the concrete work has that covered as pouring & curing concrete takes a controlled enviornment, and it's tough to dig or trench in frozen earth, if he folds your completion bond is what they'll come after.
Reading between the lines was the project start delayed? Or did it bid more than once?
It takes longer in the cold
The transition from doing the work to bidding the work is the question. No one will dispute that the times are different from just a few years ago and you'll find alot of men/women willing to work in the cold vs starving. That said working in freezing weather takes its toll and does take longer. Most factors that I've seen add about 50% to the original time necessary for a task in extreme weather equalling a 1.5 X factor.
I'd also be concerned that you're sub for the concrete work has that covered as pouring & curing concrete takes a controlled enviornment, and it's tough to dig or trench in frozen earth, if he folds your completion bond is what they'll come after.
Reading between the lines was the project start delayed? Or did it bid more than once?
The job was delayed and now they want to move forward on the project. They have agreed to winter conditions and now they want pricing. I guess I should say they have agreed to pricing for winter conditions. There opion might change about it moving forward once they get the pricing. The total cost of the job is about 2.5 million and of that about 1.5 million is in site work and concrete, so the increase will be very large.
hardworkingstiff
Senior Member
- Location
- Wilmington, NC
Concrete winter mix and heat blankets would be the biggest expenses I think. How about your trenches, will you require different excavation/backfill methods or materials?
I don't know if you can up electrical labor because it's winter.
I don't know if you can up electrical labor because it's winter.
K8MHZ
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrician
I mis read the question. I took 'labor increase' to mean wages per hour, not hours needed.
You not only need to figure for lags due to workers not being as productive, but the fact that wire is MUCH harder to work with when it's cold. I have personally seen the insulation on THHN shatter when the conductor was bent enough to land in a meter base.
In deep snow, simple logistics become a nightmare.
Cordless equipment will discharge faster in sub zero weather, and take longer to re-charge.
Vehicles will be more expensive to keep operating and will suffer a higher indecent rate of starting failure when it's cold.
Accident rates will increase as slip and falls are common here during the winter.
Colds and the flu will take it's toll as the virii are spread from person to person in the closed quarters of the break trailers, offices and porta-loos.
Lateness and absenteeism will increase due to auto accidents. Ice in the winter and deer in the fall take out their share of work vehicles here each year.
Opening day of firearms deer hunting season is so popular here that many shops close right up. Expect a substantial portion of the workforce to be absent on Nov. 15th of each year.
I would say 50 percent, as mentioned is not unreasonable. Some years it may take less, some much more.
I always wondered why the powers that be schedule outdoor work to be done here in the winter.
One year we had to put in a huge buss that ran down the outside of a power plant which was on Muskegon Lake, near Lake Michigan. The temp was 35 degrees, we had freezing rain and 35 mph winds for the four days we were there. The buss had been bypassed four years prior. There was no reason to not do that job during nicer weather, but that's the way they scheduled it.
I worked for a new EC in Shelby one winter on a re-mod. It was so cold inside (no heat, open walls) that a bottle of water would not last from start to first break without freezing over. The EC couldn't figure out (from the warmth of his truck) why it was taking longer to rope the house than he had figured.
I stopped trying to figure out the logic of scheduling outdoor electrical work in Antarctic conditions when a shift of just a few weeks would make all the difference in the world to the worker's productivity, safety, comfort and attitude.
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hillbilly1
Senior Member
- Location
- North Georgia mountains
- Occupation
- Owner/electrical contractor
I thought that was just a southern thing :roll:
K8MHZ
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrician
I thought it was just a Michigan thing.
So, does the south get deer widows, too? :roll:
mkgrady
Senior Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
Is the customer also asking you to accellerate your schedule? Or are you being given the same calander days but they are shifted to cold weather? If both then you are entitled to cost adjustments for both.
How you price the adjustments is another matter. Accelleration can be very costly but it is very project specific. Ask yourself, What will having less time to do the work do to my costs of doing business? Sometimes it could be just a matter of an additinal supervisor and CQC rep. to handle the complexity of moving faster, in which case their costs plus markup would be compensable. If the accelleration causes you to overstaff or work overtime you can capture those added costs.
If you are simply being asked to shift the contract duration into the winter with the same amout of work days you still have substantial increases in costs but it is simpler to calculate.
Rather than have us guess, why don't you tell us more. I would begin by describing how the contract duration or seasons are different than what you bid. Then you may want to start listing how you expect your costs to be more and why. We can help you come up with the things you are not thinking of.
For starters, ask your subs how this change in schedule affects their price to you.
How you price the adjustments is another matter. Accelleration can be very costly but it is very project specific. Ask yourself, What will having less time to do the work do to my costs of doing business? Sometimes it could be just a matter of an additinal supervisor and CQC rep. to handle the complexity of moving faster, in which case their costs plus markup would be compensable. If the accelleration causes you to overstaff or work overtime you can capture those added costs.
If you are simply being asked to shift the contract duration into the winter with the same amout of work days you still have substantial increases in costs but it is simpler to calculate.
Rather than have us guess, why don't you tell us more. I would begin by describing how the contract duration or seasons are different than what you bid. Then you may want to start listing how you expect your costs to be more and why. We can help you come up with the things you are not thinking of.
For starters, ask your subs how this change in schedule affects their price to you.
macmikeman
Senior Member
- Location
- Planet macmikeman
First couple of big winter swells hits here and everybody calls in sick...
First couple of big winter swells hits here and everybody calls in sick...
:grin:I'll bet The snow storms slow things a little:grin:
I agree with dan.
I would want a firm Quote from your concrete sub.
With a little luck you will get good weather for your job.
Good thing he was sitting in his truck all day wasting Gas instead of working with his guys and i'll bet that went over well with the G/C they just love paying for somone to sit on their truck:grin:
stevenje
Senior Member
- Location
- Yachats Oregon
First couple of big winter swells hits here and everybody calls in sick...
Kowabunga dude! Grab your Rhino Chaser. There's some gnarly macker's out there!
zog
Senior Member
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
I have lived in MI and the South. Deer season in MI/WI/MN is like a national holiday, crazy.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Actually based on some manufacturer's instructions, you can't install that type of wire when the temperature is below 14?F.
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