wire assembles in the way of panel swap

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liquidtite

Senior Member
Location
Ny
I was swaping out an old fp for a new cutler n hammer after removing the plaster and taking out the existing panel i noticed that their are 4 14awg nm branchcircuits runing through the top plate and coming out the bottom sillplate in the bay that the panel is in.I could not move the panel bc theirs no slack on the feeder or the bcs coming in to the panel. i called the journey man and he told me to just make shure that the romexs are pressed behind the panel sandwitched to the plaster witch i did.The install is not being inspected but if it was would an inspector flag it suddenly that its not an 1''1/4 of protection if a screw were to come through the plaster .And how would you get around this
 

Gac66610

Senior Member
Location
Kansas
assuming the inspector would see the wires running through the bay, IMO yes flagged

I probably would have cut the wires stuff them into the panel and spliced them, but thats me
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector
I may be looking at it incorrectly, but I don;t find any requirement that the cables be spaced 1-1/4" unless they happen to also fall under one of the requirements in 300.4.
I understand that they are more "captive" than any romex run in a bay between studs sandwiched between insulation and the sheetrock, but from a Code standpoint, it seems the same. If they are not in an area where 300.4 requires the 1-1/4 spacing, it is not a violation.
 

liquidtite

Senior Member
Location
Ny
assuming the inspector would see the wires running through the bay, IMO yes flagged

I probably would have cut the wires stuff them into the panel and spliced them, but thats me
not shure on the article but i thought you can not use the panel as a juntion box
 

liquidtite

Senior Member
Location
Ny
[HR][/HR]
I may be looking at it incorrectly, but I don;t find any requirement that the cables be spaced 1-1/4" unless they happen to also fall under one of the requirements in 300.4.
I understand that they are more "captive" than any romex run in a bay between studs sandwiched between insulation and the sheetrock, but from a Code standpoint, it seems the same. If they are not in an area where 300.4 requires the 1-1/4 spacing, it is not a violation.
ya makes sense
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
not shure on the article but i thought you can not use the panel as a juntion box
there is no such rule. in fact, the code specifically allows it.

I agree with those that say the install is code compliant. whether it is worth the effort to cut them and reinstall them running thru the PB I can't say. it seems like a lot of extra work for little benefit.
 
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hurk27

Senior Member
many do not realize that there are two 1 1/4" rules and do not realize that if you are 1 1/4" away from the stud edge the code states they are not likely to be penetrated by nails as most will be trying to hit the stud when using nails, this is the part of the rule that allows us to install wiring in walls less then 3.5" thick like furred out walls as long as we keep the cable 1 1/4" away from the stud edge.

See 300.4(A)(1) for the 1 1/4" rule where conductors run through wood, and 300.4(D) for conductors parallel to framing members, two different rules that a few never catch on to.
 

mike1061

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
Read 312.8, all of it.
I read it. It says "unless adequate space for this purpose is provided." I get a lot of jobs removing splices from circuit breaker panels. Here in Chicago, it is not permited. I've been told "circuit breaker panels are not listed for splices.
This is one of the parts of the code I don't agree with, but I just comply. I just don't see what could happen.
Thanks
Mike
 

hurk27

Senior Member
I read it. It says "unless adequate space for this purpose is provided." I get a lot of jobs removing splices from circuit breaker panels. Here in Chicago, it is not permitted. I've been told "circuit breaker panels are not listed for splices.
This is one of the parts of the code I don't agree with, but I just comply. I just don't see what could happen.
Thanks
Mike
Well this is at least one good change came out in the 2011 code changes as 312.8 was reworded to make this clearer as UL and manufactures have tried for years to get people to understand that there has been space provided for making splices in breaker panels for a while now.

Here is the new wording:

312.8 Switch and Overcurrent Device
Enclosures with Splices, Taps, and Feed-
Through Conductors
The wiring space of enclosures for switches or overcurrent
devices shall be permitted for conductors feeding through,
spliced, or tapping off to other enclosures, switches, or overcurrent
devices where all of the following conditions are
met:
(1) The total of all conductors installed at any cross section
of the wiring space does not exceed 40 percent of the
cross-sectional area of that space.
(2) The total area of all conductors, splices, and taps installed
at any cross section of the wiring space does not
exceed 75 percent of the cross-sectional area of that
space.
(3) A warning label is applied to the enclosure that identifies
the closest disconnecting means for any feedthrough
conductors.
And the commit to the same in the hand book:
This section was revised for the 2011 Code to improve usability.
Feed-through conductors, splices, and taps are permitted
in the wiring space where conditions (1) through (3)
are met.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I read it. It says "unless adequate space for this purpose is provided." I get a lot of jobs removing splices from circuit breaker panels. Here in Chicago, it is not permited. I've been told "circuit breaker panels are not listed for splices.
This is one of the parts of the code I don't agree with, but I just comply. I just don't see what could happen.
Thanks
Mike
It sounds like 'make work' code enforcement to me.
 

mike1061

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
Thank you so much for the replies. I love learning something new. I have to admidt I had a copy of the 2008 handbook in my hand. I'll have to get a copy of Chicago's current code to see if that's in it.
It will save a lot of people grief and money if it is.
I'm telling you, last week I went to look at a job were the buyer's home inspector pointed out the splices in the panel. I was there to price replacing the panel. In includes opening the wall and making a access panel and all. I really get a lot of calls for this type of work.
Thanks
Mike
 
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