Wire bundling

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acrwc10 said:
I don't want to offend you but, that is the most over used excuse in the book for installing with code violations.
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I'm not offended at all. But there is a saying that goes, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." If I lived in Phoenix I would install an outdoor panel the exact same way.

But I will defer this discussion to 220/221, who does this installation on a regular basis and is more than capable of defending himself.
 
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220/221 said:
That's why the make caulk!


Don't worry. I put drip loops on all the conductors :)
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You may want to take a look at 312.2 Before you caulk that box tight to the wall. :smile:
 
312.2 Damp and Wet Locations.
In damp or wet locations, surface-type enclosures within the scope of this article shall be placed or equipped so as to prevent moisture or water from entering and accumulating within the cabinet or cutout box, and shall be mounted so there is at least 6-mm (1/4-in.) airspace between the enclosure and the wall or other supporting surface. Enclosures installed in wet locations shall be weatherproof. For enclosures in wet locations, raceways or cables entering above the level of uninsulated live parts shall use fittings listed for wet locations.
The last sentence was added to 312.2 for the 2005 Code to point out the need for watertight connections in areas where the wiring could lead water directly into uninsulated live parts.
Exception: Nonmetallic enclosures shall be permitted to be installed without the airspace on a concrete, masonry, tile, or similar surface.


So what you are saying is that all panels mounted outdoors shall have a 1/4in air gap between the back of the panel and the mounting surface..I thought nema 3r panels had that molded into the design..I might have to check that out later on..unless someone has the cad drawings handy..

So I can see couple of violations my question now is panel listing for air gap on back of panel and that does not look like a proper fitting either..

I can see why people are shy about posting their work it really get critiqued...:grin:

Edited to add: no one mounts outdoor panels like that here...except for a few special applications..
 
You may want to take a look at 312.2 Before you caulk that box tight to the wall.
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I don't have my book with me.:-?


If it is a ventillation issue, I only caulk the top portion and a few inches down the sides. If the code says I can't do it, I'm doing it anyway. The cables come into the back of the panel and on flat roof houses with NO overhang the water will run down behind the panel and into the structure.

It would be irresponsible to leave it open.



OK...saw the 1/4" airspace. When you caulk a panel you don't fill the whole space behind the panel. It still has the 1/4" provided by the stand off mounting holes.
 
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Another thing we do here and have done since way before my time.

Does everyone staple their romex runs above the trusses every 4.5'?

Here they just lay flat and the only staples are down the studs, at the ceiling boxes/cans and anywhere they run paralell to the framing.




I posted the section in my earlier reply for you..
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Thanks! I saw it after I posted. It doesn't apply. The mounting holes are stood off.....i assume 1/4" :)
 
220/221,

I'm from Az. to but the fact of the matter here is, it would be irrespondsible

to continue installing services with so many violations. I know, you have done

100's this way, maybe it's time to do them to the code.
 
benaround said:
Don, Bob (iwire) got me on this one a few weeks back 334.30, example: 2"

PVC conduit with nm cables giong to a panel.
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Frank,
I am not sure what you are trying to tell me. There is nothing in 334 that modifies the requirement in 312 that requires the cables to be secured to the cabinet.
 
it would be irrespondsible

to continue installing services with so many violations. I know, you have done
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Two questions.

How do you install your resi services?

Are you concerned that your service is not to code? Unless you live in the handful of houses here without an exterior service panel, yours is done the same way. It's safe and effective.

The installation is not wrong, the law is wrong and should be changed.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Frank,
I am not sure what you are trying to tell me. There is nothing in 334 that modifies the requirement in 312 that requires the cables to be secured to the cabinet.
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Don, I'm using the 2005 book, 334.30, the last sentence " sections of cable

protected from physical damage by raceway shall not be required to be

secured within the raceway ".

Ok, so I have a panel with a 2" PVC conduit coming out of it to let's say

above a ceiling, I now run a compliant amount of nm cables through the 2"

PVC and into the panel, the 2" is for protection. Do I need to install nm conn-

ectors ? Not by what 334.30 says.
 
NC has done the same for years but it appears more homes are getting interior panels. I don't believe you can enter the panel above the bussbar unless you use an approve method. PVC coupling with a slip fitting is not approved for this purpose.

I don't have an answer for you-- It is impossible to bring 40 circuits of NM cable thru an exterior wall with just 2 wires in a connector. You would literally butcher the entire integrity of the wall behind it. It would appear the only way to do this correctly would be to set a jb or gutter inside and run your wires thru to the outside panel.

In the panel you showed you would need a gutter above the panel then splice all the nm cables to Thwn wires down into the panel. This, of course, would be a terrible install and I agree that the code needs work on this issue of exterior panels and romex not being allowed to be sleeved into the ext. panel. I realize this second part is another issue altogether.
 
Maybe I'm missing something

Maybe I'm missing something

I've been reading along and looking up the codes that are mentioned (using the 2005 NEC) and I don't see a problem with multiple NMs coming into a CB box through say a 2" x 24" conduit nipple if all these criteria are met. Here's the code section:


312.5 (C) Where cable is used, each cable shall be secured to the cabinet...

Exception: Cables with entirely nonmetallic sheaths shall be permitted to enter the top of a surface-mounted enclosure through one or more nonflexible raceways not less than 18 in. and not more than 10 ft. in length, provided all of the following conditions are met:

(a) Each cable is fastened within 12 in., measured along the sheath, of the outer end of the raceway.
(b) The raceway extends directly above the enclosure and does not penetrate a structural ceiling.
(c) A fitting is provided on each end of the raceway to protect the
cable(s) from abrasion...
(d) The raceway is sealed or plugged at the outer end...
(e) The cable sheath is continuous through the raceway and extends into the enclosure beyond the fitting not less than 1/4 in..
(f) The raceway is fastened at its outer end and at other points in accordance with the applicable article.
(g) Where installed as conduit or tubing, the allowable cable fill does not exceed that permitted for complete conduit or tubing systems by Table 1 of Chapter 9 of this Code and all applicable notes thereto.

FPN: ...See 310.15(B)(2)(a) for required ampacity reductions for multiple cables installed in a common raceway.

310.15(B)(2)(a) ...where...multiconductor cables are stacked or bundled together longer than 24 in. without maintaining spacing and are not installed in raceways, the allowable ampacity of each conductor shall be reduced...

Exception No. 3: Derating factors shall not apply to conductors in nipples having a length not exceeding 24 in.
 
raider1 said:
Check out section 334.80 in the 2005 NEC. The last paragraph of that section states:

"Where more than two NM cables containing two or more current-carrying conductors are bundled together and pass through wood framing that is to be fire- or draft-stopped using thermal insulation or sealing foam, the allowable ampacity of each conductor shall be adjusted in accordance with Table 310.15(B)(2)(a)."

Also the 2008 NEC clarifys that the exception to 310.15(A)(2) does not apply to this section.

So if you run more than 2 NM cable through wood framing that is to be draft stoped you must derate them in accordance with 310.15(B)(2)(a)?.Chris
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Even with adjusting the only circuits that may be affected are appliances, the general lighting isn?t nor the SA (kit. Recepts). Most often nothing really changes.
 
Electron_Sam78 said:
I've been reading along and looking up the codes that are mentioned (using the 2005 NEC) and I don't see a problem with multiple NMs coming into a CB box through say a 2" x 24" conduit nipple if all these criteria are met. Here's the code section:
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Sam we are talking about a 2"pvc coupling held to the panel with a pvc chase nipple or box adapter. The wires come down the wall and then exit to the ext. panel. The rules you state are for conduit in the top of a panel.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Sam we are talking about a 2"pvc coupling held to the panel with a pvc chase nipple or box adapter. The wires come down the wall and then exit to the ext. panel. The rules you state are for conduit in the top of a panel.
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Yeah, I got side tracked on this one myself.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Sam we are talking about a 2"pvc coupling held to the panel with a pvc chase nipple or box adapter. The wires come down the wall and then exit to the ext. panel. The rules you state are for conduit in the top of a panel.
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Is that the OPs issue because I re-read it and it doesn't get that specific and I don't see where he clarified...or has the conversation just progressed to that subject and I haven't followed. It's possible, I have just skimmed over some of the posts. :roll:
 
I still don't see where it says you can't bring them through a single hole. Typically I put a 2x4 up and staple the wires within 12" of the panel, assuming it's indoor. Outdoor, on the other hand, kinda has to be brought in through the same hole, unless you want to drill 25 half inch holes in the back.
 
Electron_Sam78 said:
Is that the OPs issue because I re-read it and it doesn't get that specific and I don't see where he clarified...or has the conversation just progressed to that subject and I haven't followed. It's possible, I have just skimmed over some of the posts. :roll:
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Actually I was looking at the picture but that is not the op picture but here is what the OP states.

They've also said it needs romex connectors instead of pop in bushings,
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This tells me he is using a pop in bushing in the ko.
 
ironphill said:
I still don't see where it says you can't bring them through a single hole. Typically I put a 2x4 up and staple the wires within 12" of the panel, assuming it's indoor. Outdoor, on the other hand, kinda has to be brought in through the same hole, unless you want to drill 25 half inch holes in the back.
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The NEC doesn't say directly that you can't put more then 2 or 3 nm cables in a connector. What it says is you must fallow the listing and labeling instructions for the connector, and no connector is listed for more then 3 nm cables in it.
 
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