WIRE TO BIG
- Thread starter domnic
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ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: WIRE TO BIG
Do you remeber in the movie "One flew over the cukoo's nest" when their playing blackjack? Every cigarette is worth a dime, and Danny Devito keeps breaking the cigarettes and calling them nickels until Jack Nichloson intervenes by saying that "...a broken smoke isn't a nickel...it's sh*t...try and smoke it".
Same concept here.
You need to buy a lug for this. They are cheap and readily available.
Do you remeber in the movie "One flew over the cukoo's nest" when their playing blackjack? Every cigarette is worth a dime, and Danny Devito keeps breaking the cigarettes and calling them nickels until Jack Nichloson intervenes by saying that "...a broken smoke isn't a nickel...it's sh*t...try and smoke it".
Same concept here.
You need to buy a lug for this. They are cheap and readily available.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: WIRE TO BIG
My opinion is not a hardware store opinion. See 110.3(B).
My opinion is not a hardware store opinion. See 110.3(B).
electricman2
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Re: WIRE TO BIG
Sqare D makes a lug that fits into two ajacent positions on the bar and can accommodate up to a (I think)#4 conductor. Other manufacturers probably do too.
Sqare D makes a lug that fits into two ajacent positions on the bar and can accommodate up to a (I think)#4 conductor. Other manufacturers probably do too.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: WIRE TO BIG
Dominic.
Any inspector I know would fail what you describe.
The code article I would bet would be mentioned would be 110.3(B).
The terminals on that neutral bus bar are probably listed for use with 6 - 14 AWG or even 10 - 14 AWG.
Use of any conductors larger than the terminals are rated for is a clear violation of 110.3(B).
You can get the terminal electricman2 talked about.
Dominic.
Any inspector I know would fail what you describe.
The code article I would bet would be mentioned would be 110.3(B).
The terminals on that neutral bus bar are probably listed for use with 6 - 14 AWG or even 10 - 14 AWG.
Use of any conductors larger than the terminals are rated for is a clear violation of 110.3(B).
You can get the terminal electricman2 talked about.
Re: WIRE TO BIG
along that same line, Is there a ampacity rating for that nuetral bar? I saw a 200 amp 30 space MLO QO 240 volt panel with a 200 main disconnect feed 5 100 amp panels in a residential home. Of course the panel did not have the neutral terminal lugs for this, so the installer put two #2 lugs with nuetrals on one side of the nuetral bar and two on the other side. Alwayso wondered about that.
along that same line, Is there a ampacity rating for that nuetral bar? I saw a 200 amp 30 space MLO QO 240 volt panel with a 200 main disconnect feed 5 100 amp panels in a residential home. Of course the panel did not have the neutral terminal lugs for this, so the installer put two #2 lugs with nuetrals on one side of the nuetral bar and two on the other side. Alwayso wondered about that.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: WIRE TO BIG
Yes, I would turn this down, for 110.3(B), as Bob and I have described.
The nuetral bar is listed for the sizes of conductors it will accept, again, as Bob (Iwire) described.
Yes, I would turn this down, for 110.3(B), as Bob and I have described.
The nuetral bar is listed for the sizes of conductors it will accept, again, as Bob (Iwire) described.
Re: WIRE TO BIG
Hi ryan,
I am a little confused. In the earlier posts, you state that you can buy a lug to terminate that neutral into. I checked square D's website, and they make a large lug that can be attached to any nuetral bar. You just have to take out two screws. So I guess I still wonder!
Thanks!
Hi ryan,
I am a little confused. In the earlier posts, you state that you can buy a lug to terminate that neutral into. I checked square D's website, and they make a large lug that can be attached to any nuetral bar. You just have to take out two screws. So I guess I still wonder!
Thanks!
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: WIRE TO BIG
The only thing that I can find is on page 116 of the (1999) UL "white book", that states exactly what we have been discussing...one wire per lug, unless identified otherwise.
Sorry, I wish I had a better answer for you. Anyone else?
The only thing that I can find is on page 116 of the (1999) UL "white book", that states exactly what we have been discussing...one wire per lug, unless identified otherwise.
Sorry, I wish I had a better answer for you. Anyone else?
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: WIRE TO BIG
The neutral bar will be rated as high as the panel rating so it would be imposable to overload it before the panels over current protection opens.
This is forgetting about non-linear loads but as you are asking about a house there should be few non-linear loads.
This is UL approved for the purpose and you could put in as many as you need.
The neutral bar will be rated as high as the panel rating so it would be imposable to overload it before the panels over current protection opens.
This is forgetting about non-linear loads but as you are asking about a house there should be few non-linear loads.
fishin' electrician
Senior Member
- Location
- Connecticut
Re: WIRE TO BIG
OK, I would never do this because I'm well aware of the inexpensive step-up lugs, but I'll play devil's advocate I guess.
Splitting it among two holes would still have only 1 wire per hole.
Unless the lug was specifically rated for 14, 12, 10, 8, 6, and 4 AWG instead of rated 14 thru 4 AWG and half of that larger conductor was betwen 14 and 4 AWG, how would that violate 110.3(B)?
OK, I would never do this because I'm well aware of the inexpensive step-up lugs, but I'll play devil's advocate I guess.
Splitting it among two holes would still have only 1 wire per hole.
Unless the lug was specifically rated for 14, 12, 10, 8, 6, and 4 AWG instead of rated 14 thru 4 AWG and half of that larger conductor was betwen 14 and 4 AWG, how would that violate 110.3(B)?
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: WIRE TO BIG
Hi Fishin' electrician
Let me ask you though, if you call half of a conductor "one wire", what size is it? I don't there is such a thing as "half a wire". You either have a conductor, or you do not.
If you seperate the conuctor, a larger amount of current would flow on one of the conductors in respect to the other, wouldn't it?
[ February 05, 2004, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: ryan_618 ]
Hi Fishin' electrician
Let me ask you though, if you call half of a conductor "one wire", what size is it? I don't there is such a thing as "half a wire". You either have a conductor, or you do not.
If you seperate the conuctor, a larger amount of current would flow on one of the conductors in respect to the other, wouldn't it?
[ February 05, 2004, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: ryan_618 ]
sparky
Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
Re: WIRE TO BIG
I'll side with fishin electrician for argument , a # 6 wire for instance has several strands. if someone splits these strands and make two wires out of one and place each "wire" under differant screws what code does this violate?
I'll side with fishin electrician for argument , a # 6 wire for instance has several strands. if someone splits these strands and make two wires out of one and place each "wire" under differant screws what code does this violate?
fishin' electrician
Senior Member
- Location
- Connecticut
Re: WIRE TO BIG
Ryan
I agree that we don't know what size it is, but a 2AWG split in half will certainly be between a 14 and a 4. I can't find an NEC definition of a conductor, only a distinction between bare, covered and insulated. I still don't see a violation of 110.3(B)
I also agree that more current would flow in one of the seperated sections than the other. With an odd number of strands you can't get it split directly in half but, I don't see the danger in these unequally sized ?" long sections of the conductor as the current would be proportional to the two differing sizes. Nor do I see a violation.
Ryan
I agree that we don't know what size it is, but a 2AWG split in half will certainly be between a 14 and a 4. I can't find an NEC definition of a conductor, only a distinction between bare, covered and insulated. I still don't see a violation of 110.3(B)
I also agree that more current would flow in one of the seperated sections than the other. With an odd number of strands you can't get it split directly in half but, I don't see the danger in these unequally sized ?" long sections of the conductor as the current would be proportional to the two differing sizes. Nor do I see a violation.
svaurez
Member
- Location
- California
Re: WIRE TO BIG
110.12
Electrical equipment shall be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner.
110.12
Electrical equipment shall be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner.
A
a.wayne3@verizon.net
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Re: WIRE TO BIG
If you alter the wire then you are altering the cir. mils.why just not tap approriate sized wire on it.Tap rule still appies.Wired in # 6 and a 30 amp breaker is needed to max. out a/c comp. so tap with # 10 ...Why try to alter ???
If you alter the wire then you are altering the cir. mils.why just not tap approriate sized wire on it.Tap rule still appies.Wired in # 6 and a 30 amp breaker is needed to max. out a/c comp. so tap with # 10 ...Why try to alter ???
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