WIRE TO BIG

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Re: WIRE TO BIG

Originally posted by fishin' electrician:
Splitting it among two holes would still have only 1 wire per hole.

Unless the lug was specifically rated for 14, 12, 10, 8, 6, and 4 AWG instead of rated 14 thru 4 AWG and half of that larger conductor was betwen 14 and 4 AWG, how would that violate 110.3(B)?
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I can't find an NEC definition of a conductor, only a distinction between bare, covered and insulated. I still don't see a violation of 110.3(B)
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The NEC does not have to define conductor in the way you are looking for.

The wire maker has defined it as 4 AWG not 4 AWG or 8 AWG and 6 AWG

I don't see the danger in these unequally sized ?" long sections of the conductor as the current would be proportional to the two differing sizes. Nor do I see a violation.
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310.4
 
Re: WIRE TO BIG

Domnic, you really need to listen to these guys, they know what they are talking about. If you look at their posts, they are now playing a bit. The terminals in the neutral/grounding bus will normally take up to a #4 Stranded Cu. conductor and the panelboard is listed for that. Accessory kits are available for larger conductors that have been listed by the manufacturer for that use.

Ryan is not the only one here who knows what he is talking about so it is not necessary to address your questions to him. Different people have different areas of expertise. If someone misspeaks, someone else will correct that person.

Welcome to the forum, I hope you will become a contributor. :D
 
Re: WIRE TO BIG

Sparky
Playing the devils advocate is good, as it sparks more interest and comments to help see how people feel about a subject.
Altering a listed product (the conductor in this case) may not create a problem, but it has not been tested to verify it's performance. Without the proper testing we do not really know how it performs, therefore we cannot be sure of the results, even if this has been done a million times before. Using the proper equipment and techniques is what separates us from the 'big box' installers and makes us professionals. the fact that manufacturers have a product for this situation says to me use the product and be a professional. If one breaks one rule what is to stop someone else from breaking a different rule, so forth and so on ... until all chaos breaks loose.

Pierre
 
Re: WIRE TO BIG

Quote by pierre
Using the proper equipment and techniques is what separates us from the 'big box' installers and makes us professionals. the fact that manufacturers have a product for this situation says to me use the product and be a professional. If one breaks one rule what is to stop someone else from breaking a different rule, so forth and so on ... until all chaos breaks loose.
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To that I say AMEN
 
Re: WIRE TO BIG

I suppose I would find it easier to accept 310.4 over 110.3(B). Would that not still leave "room" if it ended up larger than 1/O?

I do think there is a more likely chance of a different violation. I won't give it away, but I will give a hint. If you were to examine the design of the manufacturers step-up lugs, you'll see what I mean...... ;)
 
Re: WIRE TO BIG

Altering a listed product (the conductor in this case) may not create a problem, but it has not been tested to verify it's performance. Without the proper testing we do not really know how it performs, therefore we cannot be sure of the results, even if this has been done a million times before
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Which leads me to one of my favorite lines:

"It might be ok, but electricians know, arsonists guess"
 
Re: WIRE TO BIG

I might be new to this forum but I have been an electrician for 25+ years and hold a masters license, currently I am an apprenteship instructor and have over 40 credit hours in electronics. The question I asked was brought to me by a student, I could not find any violation in the code for this application ,I cannot think of any reason why that one wire under two holes cannot be as safe or safer than the other methods brought up in this forum.when it comes to article 90.4 common sence and safety should prevail (which in a lot of cases it does not)if you could tell me why this method is not safe, if made up in a workeman like manner please explane to me?
 
Re: WIRE TO BIG

Dominic you must go by the size listed on the wire jacket.

If the jacket says 4 AWG you must use a lug listed for 4 AWG.

You do not have the option of breaking the wire up into smaller groups.

If you are what you say you are you are now scaring me.
 
Re: WIRE TO BIG

Sometimes what happens is a person has performed an installation a certain way for years and had no adverse affects. Then either the NEC has changed or they see that the method they have been using is not permitted. The statement heard at that point is usually "that is a stupid rule" etc... We have all in our careers come across a situation similar to this. The best thing to do is conform to the requirement and not worry about yesterday, even if one thinks it is a stupid rule. Like I have said this is what separates the professional from ...

Pierre
 
Re: WIRE TO BIG

The testing labs (UL, FM, CSA, etc.) test assemblies based upon what the manufacturers tell them to test for. These are the conditions tested for and these are the conditions we inspectors can allow. Any other conditions (like splitting the strands) has not been tested for by the testing lab and therefore should not be approved by the inspector. Section 110.3(B) forbids it.

Section 104.11 of both the International Building Code and International Residential Code allow the building official to approve alternative methods he feels are equivalant to the intent of the code. If a BO does allow splitting the strands, he would be sticking his neck out, as listed means are available to use. He would be dead meat in any court of law, if a disaster were to occur.
 
Re: WIRE TO BIG

Domnic I too have been an electrician for 25+ years,I remember being able to take all homeruns in a panel, strip sheathing and grab the grounds and twist them together and put them under the big lug,Try that now.If you alter the wire by splitting it under 2 lugs you have altered its design and ampacity.To say it is ok is like saying that 2 # 12 wires paralleled have the same ampacity of a #8 wire,By splitting them you are in escence saying just that.
 
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