Wire

[peter d]

If the door knocks at 3 AM, it's Copper.org. They wish to have a "word" with you.

They tried that with me once. I chased them away using a whip made from 14/2 NM cable.

 

[LarryFine]

With all that being said, if it was your house, would you use 14 or 12 for the branch circuits?

Both, 12 where required 14 where it's allowed and I have been re-wiring my home.

Same here. I follow my own advice when I build for myself. I use #14 on lighting circuits and #12 on receptacle circuits, even in bedrooms, living rooms, etc.

Lighting loads are relatively predictable; receptacle loads aren't. Plus, when many people vacuum is when they're most likely to turn on all of the lights in a room.

 

[stickboy1375]

Same here. I follow my own advice when I build for myself. I use #14 on lighting circuits and #12 on receptacle circuits, even in bedrooms, living rooms, etc.

Lighting loads are relatively predictable; receptacle loads aren't. Plus, when many people vacuum is when they're most likely to turn on all of the lights in a room.

Sorry Larry, I've never had a call back for a vacuum tripping a breaker, IMO # 12 is a complete waste for general purpose receptacles. All I'm saying is # 14 is fine and so is # 12, I just dont see the point in running # 12 for an extra 600 watts.

 

[LarryFine]

Sorry Larry, I've never had a call back for a vacuum tripping a breaker, IMO # 12 is a complete waste for general purpose receptacles. All I'm saying is # 14 is fine and so is # 12, I just dont see the point in running # 12 for an extra 600 watts.

It's not just the 600 watts. In a typical small 3-bedroom house, I might place all of the lighting for the 3 bderooms, closets, bath(s), and hall on a single 15a circuit, and the receptacles (bedrooms and hall, not bath) on a single 20a circuit.

I probably would not do the same thing with two 15a circuits, but even if I did, I'd separate the lighting and receptacles. It simply provides a better-performing system, as the lights don't dim every time a TV is turned on. That's my stand.

Oh, I have seen vacuums cause 15a circuits to trip, and the lights do go out.

 

[iwire]

Oh, I have seen vacuums cause 15a circuits to trip, and the lights do go out.

OMG No!

What happened, did the residents die?

Did they have to sell their home?

What about the children, did they become addicted to crack because of this?





Sorry I use 14 for receptacles in my own home and if at some point we overload a circuit I will 'man up' go down to the basement and reset the breaker.

I have two 20 amp circuits in my kitchen, the wife still tripped them as she insisted in plugging a large electric fry plate in to the same duplex as the convection oven. She knows how to reset the breaker. :smile:

 

[CHWflorida]

OMG No! .......

I have two 20 amp circuits in my kitchen, the wife still tripped them as she insisted in plugging a large electric fry plate in to the same duplex as the convection oven. She knows how to reset the breaker. :smile:

It's one thing for a woman who's married to an electrician to reset a breaker. She knows there's nothing wrong with the circuit or if she had a doubt she could just ask you. But if a random homeowner trips a breaker sometimes they get scared (especially elderly) and if you did the wiring they sometimes have difficulty believing that everything is safe. I know we can't plan for everything the homeowner could possibly do but I like to avoid having to convince a h.o. that their house is safe even though their breaker trips every time they vacuum.

 

[cschmid]

since we are talking copper prices and whether there is a savings in electrical costs..I am on the fence there was a time I would not of used 14 for anything except control circuits..But now I can see some savings in wire costs..Most lights are becoming more efficient no less and consuming less electricity..But I do not believe with I can justify a 15amp convince receptacle at all..with the increased demand for electric gadgets more and more items are being plugged in..we are a hard wired society..

 

[peter d]

But I do not believe with I can justify a 15amp convince receptacle at all..with the increased demand for electric gadgets more and more items are being plugged in..we are a hard wired society..

Yes, and most of the time all those gadgets are plugged into plain ole 15 amp circuits without a problem. Let's be realistic here, this stuff doesn't take that much power. A lot of it is hype generated by manufacturers lobbying groups like Copper.org.

 

[cschmid]

man you guys are on copper.org..just for the record have not been there and not going to check it out at present..Never say never one does not know the future..

 

[peter d]

man you guys are on copper.org..

Only because they are one of the biggest offenders for promoting the "#12 is better in residential" myths, among others...

 

[iwire]

Here is what I do not understand

All the 'do it with 12 AWG' guys seem to have the same opinion

If you wire receptacles with 14 AWG they will trip

If you wire receptacles with 12 AWG they will never trip.

The fact is you can wire it all with 12 and it can still trip.

Good circuit layout has more to do with it then circuit size.

 

[LarryFine]

Bob, Bob, Bob . . . :smile:

Believe me, I know. I should re-explain. The main reason I generally like using #12/20a on receptacles is that I can (i.e., I feel comfortable with) placing more receptacles on a given circuit.

For example, three bedrooms' worth on one 20a circuit, where I might use two 15a circuits. Again, for example, only one vacuum is going to be run at a time, so a slight (say, 600w :grin increase can cover a larger area.

I like splitting lighting (ceiling, etc.) and receptacles for the same reasons it's traditionally done in commercial places. Plus, it's part purely personal perception: I like not seeing the lights dim when I turn on the TV.

Another reason, not that you've got me thinking about it, is wiring is simpler, even if you're wiring split receptacles, when you keep the circuits separated, even physically. Lighting overhead, receptacles below (or thru studs).

The last one is especially handy if you have a green helper. He ropes receptacles while you wire the overheads and switches. Plus, if you don't have receptacles on lighting, it's easier to wire smokes together on one circuit.

 

[iwire]

All I can say Larry is I think that your over thinking it, your applying a powerful and sharp mind to a rudimentary task. It's like using sledge hammer to put in a tack. :smile:

Now if that makes you happy and seeing as your the boss life is good. But I do not think it is possible to show a real reason 12 AWG is needed for GP receptacles.

The best argument I have every seen for the use of 12 for all circuits is this one.

The average midwest person uses 800 watts, continuously.
1 kW is probably more representative.

How many people in the average house?

1000' of #12 at 5 A dissipates 40 watts.

1000' of #14 at 5 A dissipates 63 watts.

How many feet of wire in a house?

 

[cschmid]

Only because they are one of the biggest offenders for promoting the "#12 is better in residential" myths, among others...

I never knew they promoted anything, I never even knew of them until this forum..We promote number twelve cause out here in the woods you cut your trees and build your house..run extension cords out windows or modify doors to plug vehicles in..never know when you need light for the chicken coop..

LMAO just thinking that sh-- up..here is not like city where you are correct a proper house might not need 20 amp outlets in Joeys bed room..but Joey grows up and it becomes Something else..20 amp covers you butt for most instances is it always necessary not really but the cost to improve them is astronmical compared to the extra cost at building..

Now back to copper org. just because they say it is does not mean it is so..just because the supervisor take you to the edge of a cliff and says jump do you..It is a choice..

 

[peter d]

Now back to copper org. just because they say it is does not mean it is so..

Quite the opposite, manufacturers and their advocates have enormous influence over our industry, much of it good, some of it bad.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

The watt loss calculation for #12 v #14 is flawed. It assumes that all of the current is on a single circuit. In reality it will be on a number of circuits and since the loss is based on I^2R, the difference will be much less. If you split the 5 amps of loads into 5 circuits of 200' with 1 amp on each the total loss for the #12 is 1.6 watts and 2.52 for the #14.

 

[iwire]

The watt loss calculation for #12 v #14 is flawed. It assumes that all of the current is on a single circuit.

I would not call it flawed, just limited in scope. :smile:

He used 5 amps as the load, it would be very likely that 5 amps was being used at a single receptacle. Obviously if you divided that 5 amps across two 14 AWG circuits the loss will be less.

 

[BryanMD]

The uses that resi recepticles are applied to today are VERY different than what they were asked to do even 20 years ago.

Every room has electronic devices and other appliances permanantly plugged in that in addittion to constantly sucking power would be at best inconvenient to have a power loss by tripping a breaker.

TV's and computers are at the top of this list.
Independent of amp draw is the sheer number of them.

KNOWING that almost every kids bedroom today will have (in addition to the table lamp and clock radio we may have had) a CRT and tower and printer and 19" color TV and DVD player and game Console and stereo system, etc. i

It is prudent at least for whoever is going to live there to SPECIFY that the number of recepticles and the circuits supplying them be sufficent in number but also sufficient in independence from what may be happening in the next (similarly loaded) room down the hall.

This goes beyond whether those circuits are fed by 14 or 12 wire.
Code minimum isn't enough anymore. And it isn't enough in the low priced tract house as much as it isn't enough in the Mcmansion.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

He used 5 amps as the load, it would be very likely that 5 amps was being used at a single receptacle. Obviously if you divided that 5 amps across two 14 AWG circuits the loss will be less.

His use of five amps is almost the total average load of 800 watts that he cited. It is not likely that this average load is on a single circuit. It would be on multiple circuits and because the watt loss on each conductor is a function of the current squared times the resistance, a drop in current makes a huge difference in the line losses.

 

[stickboy1375]

The uses that resi recepticles are applied to today are VERY different than what they were asked to do even 20 years ago.

Every room has electronic devices and other appliances permanantly plugged in that in addittion to constantly sucking power would be at best inconvenient to have a power loss by tripping a breaker.

TV's and computers are at the top of this list.
Independent of amp draw is the sheer number of them.

KNOWING that almost every kids bedroom today will have (in addition to the table lamp and clock radio we may have had) a CRT and tower and printer and 19" color TV and DVD player and game Console and stereo system, etc. i

It is prudent at least for whoever is going to live there to SPECIFY that the number of recepticles and the circuits supplying them be sufficent in number but also sufficient in independence from what may be happening in the next (similarly loaded) room down the hall.

This goes beyond whether those circuits are fed by 14 or 12 wire.
Code minimum isn't enough anymore. And it isn't enough in the low priced tract house as much as it isn't enough in the Mcmansion.

Code minimum is fine... not sure where your trying to go with this. Next time you go back to a house you wired, put an amprobe and any of the circuits you ran, you are in for a BIG surprise.