Wiring installed in a garage where the walls are unfinished (open studs) and the wiring follows a stud verticaly stapeled etc. and is 1-1/4 inches or more back from the stud face; is that wiring to be protected with conduit or otherwise shielded per NEC ? prevent any physical damage.....
WIREING PROTECTED FROM PYSICAL DAMAGE
- Thread starter jwhite
- Start date
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kevinware
Senior Member
- Location
- Louisville, KY
Re: WIREING PROTECTED FROM PYSICAL DAMAGE
Take a look at 300.4(D) and see if that helps.
Kevin
(NEC 2005)
[ December 08, 2005, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: kevinware ]
Take a look at 300.4(D) and see if that helps.
Kevin
(NEC 2005)
[ December 08, 2005, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: kevinware ]
websparky
Senior Member
- Location
- Cleveland, Ohio
Re: WIREING PROTECTED FROM PYSICAL DAMAGE
I believe this is a judgement call by the inspector. If the NM is in a place where it is likely to come in contact with garden tools and the usual garage stuff, then it should be protected.
I believe this is a judgement call by the inspector. If the NM is in a place where it is likely to come in contact with garden tools and the usual garage stuff, then it should be protected.
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: WIREING PROTECTED FROM PYSICAL DAMAGE
Most of our insp.say that if below the trusses than sleeve in pipe.There is no actual article to cite other than 300 4 D and That is totally open to interpetation(how many times we hear that line ).
I use pvc in a garage with no drywall.I did a home in south tampa that showed on approved plans garage to have 1/2 drywall,GC didn`t do it on final inspector tagged it for 300 4 D.He called bitched but these were his prints .Ether drywall 0r pay us to sleeve in pvc.After he got our price he drywalled
This time it paid to be highest bidder.
Most of our insp.say that if below the trusses than sleeve in pipe.There is no actual article to cite other than 300 4 D and That is totally open to interpetation(how many times we hear that line ).
I use pvc in a garage with no drywall.I did a home in south tampa that showed on approved plans garage to have 1/2 drywall,GC didn`t do it on final inspector tagged it for 300 4 D.He called bitched but these were his prints .Ether drywall 0r pay us to sleeve in pvc.After he got our price he drywalled
This time it paid to be highest bidder.
B
bthielen
Guest
Re: WIREING PROTECTED FROM PYSICAL DAMAGE
It seems that if it can be known and assured that it will NEVER be walked on, driven on, or objects dropped on it then it would seem feasible that it would be okay to secure the cable onto the floor of the garage. The likelihood of either of these conditions is quite high so this cannot be done. Same is true in an unfinished garage. How often do we see electrical cable used to support shovels, rakes, pieces of lumber, etc. that are standing between the wall studs. Seems this is exposure to potential damage.
Bob
It seems that if it can be known and assured that it will NEVER be walked on, driven on, or objects dropped on it then it would seem feasible that it would be okay to secure the cable onto the floor of the garage. The likelihood of either of these conditions is quite high so this cannot be done. Same is true in an unfinished garage. How often do we see electrical cable used to support shovels, rakes, pieces of lumber, etc. that are standing between the wall studs. Seems this is exposure to potential damage.
Bob
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: WIREING PROTECTED FROM PYSICAL DAMAGE
When protecting this cable in the garage pay attention to 334.15(B) Schedule 80 PVC rigid nonmetallic conduit,
If it needs protecting then schedule 40 offers no protection.
When protecting this cable in the garage pay attention to 334.15(B) Schedule 80 PVC rigid nonmetallic conduit,
If it needs protecting then schedule 40 offers no protection.
kevinware
Senior Member
- Location
- Louisville, KY
Re: WIREING PROTECTED FROM PYSICAL DAMAGE
Last paragraph of 300.4(D):
"Where the distance cannot be maintained, the cable or raceway shall be protected from penetration by nails or screws by a steel plate, sleeve, or equivalent at least 1.6mm (1/16 in.) thick".
Thanks,
Kevin
[ December 09, 2005, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: kevinware ]
This was Jwhite's question. 300.4 covers Protection against Physical Damage, and IMO 300.4(D) covers his situation and nowhere in 300.4(D) is it stated that the NM Cable "Shall be" installed in conduit to protect it if the 1-1/4 in. from the face of the stud is maintained. If the 1 1/4 in. is maintained other forms of protection is a judgement call, not required.
Last paragraph of 300.4(D):
"Where the distance cannot be maintained, the cable or raceway shall be protected from penetration by nails or screws by a steel plate, sleeve, or equivalent at least 1.6mm (1/16 in.) thick".
Thanks,
Kevin
[ December 09, 2005, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: kevinware ]
Re: WIREING PROTECTED FROM PYSICAL DAMAGE
Has anyone ever seen the romex after a large piece of conduit or pipe (or anything else for that matter) fell against a stud with with NM on it without protection? I have replaced it many times because of being damaged in this manner.
Has anyone ever seen the romex after a large piece of conduit or pipe (or anything else for that matter) fell against a stud with with NM on it without protection? I have replaced it many times because of being damaged in this manner.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: WIREING PROTECTED FROM PYSICAL DAMAGE
If the cable is following running boards as required in 300.15(A), and is stapled an inch and a quarter back as required in 300.4(D), then there's no reason you shouldn't be allowed to run NM exposed, IMO.
If the cable is following running boards as required in 300.15(A), and is stapled an inch and a quarter back as required in 300.4(D), then there's no reason you shouldn't be allowed to run NM exposed, IMO.
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: WIREING PROTECTED FROM PYSICAL DAMAGE
That`s the problem the NEC has 1 1/4 rule and there are others who say do you know what will be hung off than NM if exposed???? The whole thing does barrel down to what is the conditions at the insp.
I have dealt with this issue in other areas but not where we have our biggest problem
That`s the problem the NEC has 1 1/4 rule and there are others who say do you know what will be hung off than NM if exposed???? The whole thing does barrel down to what is the conditions at the insp.
I have dealt with this issue in other areas but not where we have our biggest problem
Minuteman
Senior Member
- Location
- The Sooner Nation
Re: WIREING PROTECTED FROM PYSICAL DAMAGE
I had this same issue come up in a small town outside of OKC. The local inspector was stricter than the big City inspectors. Mostly because the City took until 2004 to approve the 2002, and writes their own supplement. Anyway, the small town has already adopted the 2005 and the guy wanted it "his way". Falls under 90.4 Authority Having Jurisdiction
Hi, I'm new to the site.Originally posted by allenwayne:
One area will pass it the other say no way so who`s right.
I had this same issue come up in a small town outside of OKC. The local inspector was stricter than the big City inspectors. Mostly because the City took until 2004 to approve the 2002, and writes their own supplement. Anyway, the small town has already adopted the 2005 and the guy wanted it "his way". Falls under 90.4 Authority Having Jurisdiction
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: WIREING PROTECTED FROM PYSICAL DAMAGE
I know this is a matter for interpretation but I have a real problem with any AHJ who has that attitude. Most of the time, the AHJ is a reasonable person if you treat him (or her) with the respect they deserve.
stew
Senior Member
- Location
- federal way,washington
Re: WIREING PROTECTED FROM PYSICAL DAMAGE
For jwelectric. I cannot agree with your "opinion" that you must use schedule 80 to acheive protection. Schedule 40 is one of the methods that can be used for sleeving conductors for protection. The code does not prohibit the use of schedule 40 nor does it specifically require schedule 80. I hterefore conclude that your staement must be just the way you would do it ? The only time I have been required to use Schedule 80 is for the first 10 feet of riser out of the ground at an outside location.
For jwelectric. I cannot agree with your "opinion" that you must use schedule 80 to acheive protection. Schedule 40 is one of the methods that can be used for sleeving conductors for protection. The code does not prohibit the use of schedule 40 nor does it specifically require schedule 80. I hterefore conclude that your staement must be just the way you would do it ? The only time I have been required to use Schedule 80 is for the first 10 feet of riser out of the ground at an outside location.
al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: WIREING PROTECTED FROM PYSICAL DAMAGE
Stew,
Take a look at 2005 NEC 334.15 (B) Protection from Physical Damage. First sentence.
I will admit that Sch40 may be "other approved means", but the sentence starts with Sch80 PVC, not PVC in general.
Going back to the opening post, it is my xperience that if 2005 NEC 334.15 (A) To Follow Surface is met in an unfinished garage, then no further protection is required. My experience goes back to the mid '60s as an electrician and electrical contractor working in two states and inspected by a gazillion AHJs.
Stew,
Take a look at 2005 NEC 334.15 (B) Protection from Physical Damage. First sentence.
I will admit that Sch40 may be "other approved means", but the sentence starts with Sch80 PVC, not PVC in general.
Going back to the opening post, it is my xperience that if 2005 NEC 334.15 (A) To Follow Surface is met in an unfinished garage, then no further protection is required. My experience goes back to the mid '60s as an electrician and electrical contractor working in two states and inspected by a gazillion AHJs.
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: WIREING PROTECTED FROM PYSICAL DAMAGE
From the UL "White Book":
RIGID NONMETALLIC, SCHEDULE 40 AND SCHEDULE 80 PVC CONDUIT (DZYR) USE AND INSTALLATION
Schedule 40 conduit is suitable for underground use by direct burial or encasement in concrete. Unless marked ??Underground Use Only?? or equivalent wording, Schedule 40 conduit is also suitable for aboveground use indoors or outdoors exposed to sunlight and weather where not subject to physical damage.
From the UL "White Book":
RIGID NONMETALLIC, SCHEDULE 40 AND SCHEDULE 80 PVC CONDUIT (DZYR) USE AND INSTALLATION
Schedule 40 conduit is suitable for underground use by direct burial or encasement in concrete. Unless marked ??Underground Use Only?? or equivalent wording, Schedule 40 conduit is also suitable for aboveground use indoors or outdoors exposed to sunlight and weather where not subject to physical damage.
Minuteman
Senior Member
- Location
- The Sooner Nation
Re: WIREING PROTECTED FROM PYSICAL DAMAGE
[ December 26, 2005, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: Minuteman ]
Yep. But being the 1st job, in a new town, I decided to I pick my battles and did it "his way".Originally posted by charlie:
I know this is a matter for interpretation but I have a real problem with any AHJ who has that attitude. Most of the time, the AHJ is a reasonable person if you treat him (or her) with the respect they deserve.
[ December 26, 2005, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: Minuteman ]
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