Wires overheating and melting the insulation

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Trawets

Member
Location
Pittsburgh
There is no 2 pole breaker in that area, so I’m assuming that you are talking about the single above the 3 pole. I think that is just heat transfer but I’m really not sure. There have been no leaks in that room in the 8 years that I have worked there. The electric closets are stacked and that room is at the bottom of them.

What does FOP mean?

It was a clean install so I assumed it was grease from the factory or a part of the melted insulation because it is on the line lugs but not on the insulation. I have not been able to track the source of it but have wondered that myself.

This room sees a lot of outside air movement for about 30 to 60 minutes a month even though it is inside the building. It is in our generator radiator room. The disco is a NEMA 1 enclosure.


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Trawets

Member
Location
Pittsburgh
What does FOP mean?


Never mind, found it....Fall Of Potential.... Thank you google!

Now I have to figure out how to test for that and how to correct any issues.

Remember though..... this is happening with 4 separate circuits wired in the same way. I am just using this one as an example of the 4.

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Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
There is no 2 pole breaker in that area, so I’m assuming that you are talking about the single above the 3 pole. I think that is just heat transfer but I’m really not sure. There have been no leaks in that room in the 8 years that I have worked there. The electric closets are stacked and that room is at the bottom of them.

What does FOP mean?

FOP = Fall of Potential

You measure voltage across the breaker. Meaning, while energized/closed, put one test lead on the line side of breaker and the other lead on the load side. I'm not sure what the potential difference in voltage should be on that size breaker, but you should read very little difference between line & load.
 

MTW

Senior Member
Location
SE Michigan
I'm with Cow on this one.

Your disconnect guts need to be replaced.

We use Siemens disconnects almost exclusively and I've had to replace several of these over the years that have been fairly heavily loaded over a long period of time because they start generating too much heat at the switching mechanism which in turn starts to overheat the terminations and wiring. You got 6 years out of them since your original install. So now you know they have a 6 year lifespan in this environment, if you want longer service intervals, replace with 100 amp disconnects.

I do not believe strand count is playing a part in generating the heat. For instance, we do work for large farms with potato storages, typically 60 amp disconnects with 60 amp fuses to cords running as much potato piling equipment as they can plug in. Fuses blowing are common, but I do not see symptoms of overheating where the SO cords are ran right to the disconnect terminals.

I know fine stranded wire should not be terminated in this manner, but the reality is, generally it is not a problem.

The only terminations burning are the disconnect line side. Fine strand wiring type aside for the moment, no other connections are burning. Normally the heater end of the circuit would likely see the highest temperatures, and no issues mentioned there.

From your IR images its clear that the serious heat originates at the left two poles of the disconnect. At the bottom of the movable contact, and rising up from there.
SiemensSwitch1.jpg

In this image the right pole is not as hot, and has a better connection. The first two poles running at 87C, is well over the 75C terminal rating, and real close to the 90C wire maximum rating. The rotating bar contacts are not making a good connection with the stationary contacts. This is likely where you will read the most FOP.

Where I differ with Cow is I would not replace the guts, I would replace with a better designed switch. A 6 year lifespan for industrial equipment is way too short, for my liking. I do not use rotating bar type disconnects on my projects after seeing them fail after thirty days from the install, for this same reason. Poor connection from the single sided wiping contact connections. Often they do not fully mechanically engage when turned on. GE was another adopter of this style mechanism early on. They work OK on commercial work, but not for continuous industrial loads, that are run near their rating.

The plasticizer oil is being baked out of the wire insulation, running down the switch internals and rear wall and accumulating on the bottom. Remove the arc chute and look at the rotating contact bars, they look heavily oxidized as compared to the stationary contact plating from the photo.

SiemensSwitch.jpg

Cleaning and lubing the contacts, will not correct for the spring tension lost in the tempered, side pressure contact spring. I prefer switches that have a knife blade construction or vacu break contacts. Knife blade types have two connection points on each end of the movable blade, and spring pressure on each side. Sq D is one of the makers of a HD knife blade construction, as do others.

Meanwhile the breaker termination seems to be surviving fine at 44C, looks as if the bottom pole is a tad cooler, like the right pole in the switch, better contact connection in the rotary switch.

SqD Brk IR.jpg
 

sameguy

Senior Member
Location
New York
Occupation
Master Elec./JW retired
Am I the only one seeing a phase on the 20 amp 2 pole breaker also reading hot? Notice the discoloration on face of both the 60 amp 3 pole breaker and the 20 amp 2 pole breaker. They look like they may have gotten wet, or seen some contamination. I'd like to know what FOP test says at full load on both breakers. Granted that low voltage to a heating element shouldn't cause increased amperage.

And what is that goop in the bottom of the disco that looks like oil?

Doubt the loops in the wire on line side of disco are adding enough inductance to matter.

I'd say pull the arc chutes, re-terminate and re-tighten everything. Spray blades and line side contacts with contact cleaner. Inspect blades and abrade with gray scotchbrite if needed (but don't remove silver!). Squeeze line side contacts together with needle nose and apply some of that "red grease" sparingly to blades/contacts. Open and close disco several times and make sure all blades are fully engaging line side contacts.

Then give it a few days of operation and take some more infrared pics.

Like I said, I've been seeing a lot more disco's causing these problems over the past decade or two. Not a fan of plastic rotors for the blades.

PS, remove line side lugs, clean both mating sides, maybe add conductive grease, and reinstall.

Yes, I too saw that. Screw is discoloured from heat. Infrared shows hot.
 

Trawets

Member
Location
Pittsburgh
Update:

Changed out the breaker. “A” phase had a bad connection. Scraped the arc marks off the bus and installed a new 60 amp breaker.
Changed the SO cord to FMC and THHN.

Issue still seems to be originating at the disco.

The current disco is general duty. I have a 60 amp heavy duty that I’m going to install in its place and see if that helps.


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