Wiring for 200A disconnect breaker

[Erin Shirley]

I am a homeowner, not trying to do anything myself! I have an electrician coming next week to look at this but am trying to understand it. We are selling home and inspector said this: Exterior Main Shut-Off has OVERSIZED BREAKER. "The service size is a 150A and a 200A disconnect breaker (there are two switches shown in the photos). However, the wiring to both indoor panels is 2/0 aluminum. This size wiring is not designed for 200A (must be 4/0 aluminum for that size.) Have a licensed electrician verify proper sizing and repair as needed for safe use. An oversized breaker can cause overheating issues." This house is 5 years old in Jacksonville, FL, so obviously was inspected during construction. My questions for the forum are:
1. The exterior panel has two switches on it - is it possible that it was installed properly and he is wrong? It seems like if it was a major violation, it would not have passed city inspections at initial construction.
2. What exactly about this would have to be fixed? Does it need to be re-wired, or switch out the higher 200A for a lower (150A or another) disconnect switch?
3. Is this a standard/typical code violation OR is it something that is just "recommended" for extra safety?

This is a 3500 sf home with an electrical panel in the garage and the main one in the house, which is why I'm assuming there are two disconnect switches.

I know nothing about this but am trying to anticipate how big of a deal this is, estimated time to repair it, etc. and I don't understand what the real problem is and whether it's a simple fix or not. Because it's the buyer's inspector, not proper protocol for me to call him directly. I'm just trying to estimate the scope of the problem and the likely fix so that when the electrician comes next week I understand how he is likely to address this scenario - I know he'll know what he's doing, but I want to understand the problem - and particularly the scope of work. We have had zero electrical problems in this very young, well-constructed home, so I am curious as to if this is a "real" problem or the inspector finding something to write up that is simply "recommended."

Thanks very much (in advance!) to any/all of you who can help me understand this!

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Something doesn't sound right. If there are 2- 200 amp breaker feeding 2- 150 amp panels with 2/0 aluminum then that is an issue. Hard to know what he is saying without pictures

 

[Erin Shirley]

Trying to upload page of the report that has photos

Trying to upload page of the report that has photos

Thanks so much for trying to help - I can't seem to upload the one page of the inspection report that shows the photos. If you want to email me your email address, I'll send it to you directly. My email is: <email removed per forum rules>

 

[LarryFine]

Erin, what is the amp rating of each switch, and, if there are any, what is the rating of the main breaker in each inside panel?

 

[Erin Shirley]

Clarifying disconnects

Clarifying disconnects

The photo shows what looks like two disconnects. He said "the service size is a 150A and a 200A disconnect breaker." He only had an outline on one of the breakers, so I'm assuming he identified the 200A one in the photo and his words said "the wiring to both indoor panels is 2/0 aluminum. This size wiring is not designed for 200A (must bee 4/0 aluminum for that size)."

There's one other photo that shows a black cable with a plate-thing - kind of a tag - on it that partially says "use in live electrical 2-0" - the full tag is not shown but he circled the 2-0 on the photo of tag in his report.

Thanks for helping me on this, I just want to be ready when the electrician comes and knowledgeable about what it is he needs to do.

 

[Erin Shirley]

Response to Larry Fine on size of breakers

Response to Larry Fine on size of breakers

There are two switches (disconnects?) in exterior box - one is 150a the other is 200a. There are two interior panels, one in garage and one in main house - neither have main breakers on them - just the indiv. area breakers.

 

[Jon456]

Thanks very much (in advance!) to any/all of you who can help me understand this!

If you are serious about getting good answers (and the guys here in this forum are top-notch when it comes to knowing the code, knowing the trade, and giving excellent advice), then you'll post photos.

Take a couple of photos of the outside panel: one far enough way to show how the power enters the panel, and one close enough with the panel door open to show any disconnects or breakers.

Take photos of the inside panels with the doors open.

If you have any photos of the panels taken during the inspection with the covers off and showing the wiring, post those too. But I would not recommend you open the panels yourself.

 

[Erin Shirley]

Photos

Photos

I will go take photos as you suggested and upload them shortly. I tried to upload just the one page where the inspector put the photos but it was 344kb and the forum only allows 150kb or so for a file upload. Thanks so much- Erin

 

[Jon456]

I will go take photos as you suggested and upload them shortly. I tried to upload just the one page where the inspector put the photos but it was 344kb and the forum only allows 150kb or so for a file upload. Thanks so much- Erin

You can always host large photos on an external photo sharing site, and then link to the photo(s) here. Although if it's several photos on one page, then they may be too small to be useful.

 

[Erin Shirley]

Could only attach one photo - it's of the two switches in exterior box

Could only attach one photo - it's of the two switches in exterior box

Photo of two switches in exterior box is only photo that uploaded - the others were rejected for upload - prob too big. The photo I attached is of the 150a and the 200a disconnect switches in exterior box.

 

[Erin Shirley]

Here is dropbox link to four photos of my "challenge"

Here is dropbox link to four photos of my "challenge"

Here is a drop box link to a folder with four photos of box, switches and inside panel (did not take cover off!). Also in the folder is the page where the inspector took the photos - that's what I really want you all to take a look at and see what you think!

Here's the link https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nl1xanr7ice8mjj/AABj99wX4T2suaXjXt1XQ_gTa?dl=0

Thank you all for trying to help me - just want to be useful when the electrician gets here. Thank you Jon456 for the suggestion to give you guys a link!

 

[LarryFine]

No pictures necessary; we have enough info.

Without knowing load calculations, I agree with the assessment that there is a mismatch between the 200a breaker and the 2-0 al wire. One solution: replace 200a breaker with a 150a breaker.

Between you and me, in practicality, there would never be an issue if left as is, especially if the panel in question is not heavily loaded.

Erin, you're very articulate. :thumbsup:

 

[Erin Shirley]

Reply to Larry Fine

Reply to Larry Fine

I don't know if I'm articulate or not, but I do know that I do not speak ELECTRICAL!!!

If what you said is a likely solution, then only switching the disconnect switch or breaker from 200a to 150a will likely be the fix? If so, that's great b/c I was concerned about perhaps some kind of major re-wiring. For your info, this is a regular residential home with no generator or car lift or special spas or anything that would likely be installed if you needed "more power."

 

[Erin Shirley]

Well we don't mind fixing it for the next owners if it's simply switch out the breakers. My concern was that it would be some kind of major re-wiring project and being done simply as a "recommendation" vs. something that really is a safety issue.

 

[LarryFine]

When I said heavily loaded, I meant several large (40a and above) 2-pole breakers, kitchen and appliance circuits, etc.

 

[Erin Shirley]

Response to Larry Fine on 2 pole breakers and heavy load

Response to Larry Fine on 2 pole breakers and heavy load

Larry - I just went and looked at panels in the house and garage. There are no 2 pole breakers at all (if you're talking about the breaker switches in the panel that are two breakers hooked together). Only single pole breakers - even for the appliances and air conditioning systems. In the link I sent a few posts back there is a photo of interior electrical panel and also the page in inspection report that addresses the issue.

 

[Erin Shirley]

For all who are reading this..........

For all who are reading this..........

I believe Larry Fine has proposed what sounds like a reasonable, simple solution (beyond doing nothing, which would be my choice but it's in the inspection report so we've agreed to fix it!). I know the inspector was doing his job when he found the mis-match, I just wish I could have talked to him b/c he probably knew the solution, just didn't want to put it there if he's not an electrician.

Larry Fine suggested replacing the 200a with a 150a - I assume so it matches the 2/0 aluminum wire. That seems simple and hopefully the electricians we are bringing in will do just that and make it right for the next owners of this house.

I appreciate that several of you jumped right on here and were willing to help someone not in your profession. I feel like I know a lot more about this little problem now and will be able to at least speak a bit more knowledgeably to the electrician who will fix it. And you can bet when we get into our next house, I'll be looking at our electrical panels a bit differently than I ever have in the past.

THANK YOU for providing your expertise - it shows me that there really still are some of the "good guys" left in this world!!! I appreciate Larry Fine's solution and if any of you have any other thoughts on this, please chime in. If not, I'll just compliment you on your skills combined with your ability to "dumb it down" for a non-electrician - I'm a good user of a lot of power, just have no clue how I get it and I truly appreciate those of you who make it work! THANK YOU - THANK YOU - THANK YOU!!!

 

[LarryFine]

In the pic with the panel fill of breakers, the two top breakers on the left and the next-to-the-bottom breaker on the right are 2-pole breakers. Square D just makes theirs differently; they're still two breakers with a single handle.

I would describe that as a heavily loaded panel, but not very heavily. The actual electrical load depends on what loads are in use at any given time, not by what is merely connected and ready to be used.

The only down-side to replacing the breaker, beside cost, is if too much power is used at one time, the new 150a breaker could trip. I wonder if it was swapped from 150 to 200 in the past for that reason.

Well, it will only affect the people buying the house and insisting that this issue be addressed, so I wouldn't let it bother me. (Offer to sell them the 200a breaker you take out in case the 150 unit trips. )


Added: First, be SURE the wire size is as reported by the HI.

 

[ritelec]

I believe Larry Fine has proposed what sounds like a reasonable, simple solution

Larry Fine suggested replacing the 200a with a 150a - !

Just replace a breaker... maybe... but maybe not....... things seize, break, strip...... maybe maybe not.... good luck with it.

 

[ritelec]

In the pic with the panel fill of breakers, the two top breakers on the left and the next-to-the-bottom breaker on the right are 2-pole breakers. Square D just makes theirs differently; they're still two breakers with a single handle.

I would describe that as a heavily loaded panel, but not very heavily. The actual electrical load depends on what loads are in use at any given time, not by what is merely connected and ready to be used.

The only down-side to replacing the breaker, beside cost, is if too much power is used at one time, the new 150a breaker could trip. I wonder if it was swapped from 150 to 200 in the past for that reason.

Well, it will only affect the people buying the house and insisting that this issue be addressed, so I wouldn't let it bother me. (Offer to sell them the 200a breaker you take out in case the 150 unit trips. )


Added: First, be SURE the wire size is as reported by the HI.

homeowner getting info to questioning professionals based on what was suggested from a forum.... I wouldn't want to have to defend myself to someone saying.. "well he said all ya gotta do is, and you should be able to" , etc... based on what someone said on a chat room.... sight really unseen (2 cents)