Wiring for welders your opinion

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mlandy

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I have been in a discussion on another board in regards to wiring for welders. I have a not so easy feeling about the gentleman?s analyses below. Guess it would be OK if the welder is the only thing he will use the circuit for. What are your thoughts on this. Thanks mlandy

Hobart Handler 180

The nameplate tells me that it has a 30% duty cycle and a 20A input current rating.

Everything you've learned to this point goes right out the window as far as sizing wire size and breaker for a given load. Welders are special, and have their own rules. (so do motors, but we're not going down that road right now)

Per table 630.11 (A)
We find that we can reduce the amp output by a multiplying factor of .55 for a non-motor generator type of arc welder.

So we multiply the input current of 20A by the multiplication factor of .55 and reach a current rating of 11A
20A x .55 = 11A

We size the conductors for this ampacity rating. In this instance, a #14 conductor is sufficient. Taken from the 60* column of the table 310.16.

FYI - You find your wire size from the 60* column when a load is under 100A per 110.14 (C)

With #14 wire, we have to keep our circuit no more than 50? from the source (panel) to keep our voltage drop under the prescribed 3% allowed by the NEC per 210.19 (A)(1) FPN No. 4.

We use the formula -
VD = 2 x K x L x I
. . . . . . . . D

Assuming:
VD = Voltage Drop
K = Resistivity of Conductor (found in Table 8)
L = Length of the circuit, one way
I = Current in conductor (amperes)
D = Cross section of conductor (in circular mils, also found in Table 8)

Now, we know that if it?s within 50?, we can use our #14 wire.

Let?s size our over current protection (circuit breaker). 630.12 (A) tells us that our over current protection shall be rated or set at not more than 200% of the rated primary current of the welder (20A). This makes our maximum circuit breaker size a 40A.
(Note ? the nameplate or owners manual will suggest an over current protective device ampacity. MOCP (Maximum Over Current Protection) if it is on the nameplate. Use this information only if it?s not available on the nameplate or owners manual.)

Let?s look for our equipment grounding conductor size. We?ll start with Table 250.122. This table tells us that #12 is needed for a grounding conductor on a 20A load.

Now we know that we need 2 - #14 and 1 - #12 for circuit conductors. Let?s size our conduit. We?ll assume EMT for our conduit.

Looking at Annex C, Table C1 ? we find that ?? EMT is good for 9 #12 THHN conductors. Since the #12 is our largest conductor, and we only have a total of 3 conductors, we?ll go with the ?? EMT for our raceway.

In summary:

For a Hobart Handler 180
So long as we keep our total circuit length under 50?, we can use 2 #14 and 1 #12 for our wire size, and a maximum of a 40A circuit breaker.

__________________
 
mlandy said:
What are your thoughts on this.

For a Hobart Handler 180

...we can use 2 #14 and 1 #12 [EGC] for our wire size...
250.122(A) states that the EGC "...shall not be smaller than shown in Table 250.122 but shall not be required to be larger than the circuit conductors...". Therefore, you could use a #14 EGC.
 
I don't know why they got all analytical for a 20A welder. I agree with most of the conclusion, but have these comments:

The ground is not required to be larger than the supply conductors, so #14 will work for all three wires.

There are no voltage drop limits in the NEC, just a suggestion via a fine print note. So you could use #14 for as long of a circuit as you want for this welder.

Welders are allowed to have a larger breaker than you would normally use on a given size wire (similar rules for motors and HVAC units too). But just because you can doesn't mean you should. If there is any chance this circuit could be used for other things, I'd just wire it normally -- #12 wire on a 20A breaker. This will probably work just fine for the welder. If the breaker trips, then you can upsize it to a max of 40A. But then I'd label the receptacle as "welder only".
 
This guy is giving some bad advice (in my opinion ) because the thread started out like this. >>>
I'm about to buy a welder (Millermatic 180) but wanted to get the wiring done first. My dad (wiring this at my parents house) have a 220V 20 amp plug. The wiring is 12/2 3 wire I think. I can't run a new line from the breaker box as it is all used up. I would like to just upgrade the 220V line. (Requires 1-Phase Power 230 V, 21.7 A, 60 Hz )<<< The manufactures specs are as follows:
Input Power
Requires 1-Phase Power
230 V, 21.7 A, 60 Hz
Rated Output
135 A at 22.5 VDC, 30% Duty Cycle
Welding Amperage Range
30 - 180 Amps
I feel he is pushing the button with #14 AWG (has a 100ft. run) and would hate to see a bad outcome for not so good advice. It just don?t seem right for a 220V 0n #14 conductors on such a run.
Here is the link for the full welder discription http://www.weldersource.com/907312011.html
 
There are code compliant answers and good design answers. Many times, the two are not the same. #14 60C copper wire is good for 20 amps, we're just limited most of the time to breakering it at 15. The wire isn't going to burn up using this welder. An existing 12-2 circuit on a 20A breaker should work just fine with no changes.
 
mlandy said:
This guy is giving some bad advice (in my opinion )

So giving advice that is NEC compliant is 'bad advice'?

I agree that code minimum and good design are not always the same thing but I would not call it unsafe or otherwise ill advised.
 
Yeah id just use #12 on a 20 amp incase someone plugs something else into it down the road... Id just feel better about it. The guys #12/2 should be fine,
 
iwire said:
So giving advice that is NEC compliant is 'bad advice'?

I agree that code minimum and good design are not always the same thing but I would not call it unsafe or otherwise ill advised.

Most restrictive shall apply. Change the cord and your done with warranty and any home insurance from anything that might happen. Use the bootleg plug for something else more demanding and you might be out of luck. Just to say it is going to work doesn't mean it's always right. No matter how restrictive the NEC is they do not overide Manufactures Specs...
 
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mlandy said:
Change the cord and your done with warranty and any home insurance from anything that might happen.

I looked back at your two posts in this thread and I do not see that you said anything about changing the cord.

I would not change the cord.

But why would you need to?

Not giving you a hard time, I am just not following you.
 
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