Wiring machine shop equipment from Delta grounded b to 120/208/Y 3 phase 4 wire

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EATDIRT

Member
Location
SE Wisconsin
Could anyone give me any advice as to what it takes to correctly wire manual and CNC type machines (lathes,mills,grinders,welders,ect.). Their current power source being 240V grounded b Delta to 120/208/Y 3 phase 4 wire? Is there any potential problems to look for besides the B phase not being switched?
 

EATDIRT

Member
Location
SE Wisconsin
When I wire at the new location using 120/208/Y I just hook up the A,B,C phases? like I would any 3 phase machine? Do I need to reconfigure any wiring in the machine.
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
When I wire at the new location using 120/208/Y I just hook up the A,B,C phases? like I would any 3 phase machine? Do I need to reconfigure any wiring in the machine.
Maybe.

In recap: existing facility is 240V Grounded-B phase 3P 3W, new facility will be 208Y/120 3P 4W.

The only issue I can see is if some person "re-grounded" a B-phase conductor in one of the machines. And, that your 240V motors and control transformers are now only going to get 208V, you may find the CNC equipment 'mis-performing" due to low voltage
 

Little Bill

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Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
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Semi-Retired Electrician
Maybe.

In recap: existing facility is 240V Grounded-B phase 3P 3W, new facility will be 208Y/120 3P 4W.

The only issue I can see is if some person "re-grounded" a B-phase conductor in one of the machines. And, that your 240V motors and control transformers are now only going to get 208V, you may find the CNC equipment 'mis-performing" due to low voltage

We changed facilities a few years ago. Old building was 240/120, new building 208/120. We had several "buggy" machines and didn't realize right off that it was the voltage difference. Had to use boost (auto) transformers on some machines. I found on some machines there were taps for different voltages in the power supplies. I moved the wires to the 208 (some marked 210v) and the problems went away. So you might check your machinery to see if you can change the input voltage.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
110129-1943 EST

EATDIRT:

I believe you will find that most CNC machines are designed for a floating delta input. This means in the basic machine design none of the 3 input lines is wired to the machine chassis, or any components that carry much current will attach to the chassis. There may be capacitive noise filters from the 3 phase lines to the chassis, but these are not high current. However, there will be a ground lug near the disconnect for connection of the EGC. So make sure that none of the 3 input lines are connected to the chassis internally.

On the subject of 208 vs 240 you will probably find an input transformer in the machine or external for adjustment for different line voltages. Usually goes somewhat below and above the 208 - 240 range.

From the HAAS installation manual:
AC Input Power
? Most domestic machines require three-phase power, which may be either wye or delta type. The power source must be grounded: leg or center leg for delta; neutral for wye.
? A separate earth ground is required for three-phase power. Conduit type ground will not be sufficient.
? All phases must be balanced, and voltages must be within ?10%.
? Low-voltage power (208 or 240 VAC) can be set up on the standard machine.
? High-voltage power (480 VAC) requires a high-voltage option to be purchased with the machine.
? The exact supply voltage will be matched at the time of installation by the service technician, who will adjust the internal transformer taps.
Not very clear. I believe that on a delta source it means you can not use an ungrounded delta. In an installation manual this is sort of a useless description to tell you the HAAS serviceman will set the taps. Why do you have to call a HAAS person to do this?

See pages 231 and 232 of http://haascnc.com/pdf/96-8000.pdf for somewhat more information. But no details on setting the taps. Voltage range is specified as 195 to 260.

15 years ago HAAS provided some circuit diagrams in their manual. But now it appears there is nothing.

.
 

rt66electric

Senior Member
Location
Oklahoma
similar problems

similar problems

We had a cnc lathe. The whole building had low voltage problems especially in the summer. 196 VAC was a commomsight on the meters. We installed many 12v buck/boost XFMRS throughout the shop.

Chech Each machines' control cabinet for Control voltage XFMERS. There are usually line voltage taps for various voltages.

Another note>> We probably spent over $5000 on rewiring,adding, buck/boost, 100amp isolations XFMRS, and other attemps to achieve decent voltage regulations on a particular machine. A year or so later the machine maintenance "dude had the lathe open for realignment. Inside the oppposite support column was a universal XFMR with every tap imaginable. After all of the work we did to the building, we could have had the problemfixed in 15min.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
110130-1149 EST

tryinghard:

The point I was trying to make about the HAAS statement that I quoted was this:

I believe HAAS's only real requirement is that the power source be grounded, with the added restriction that the maximum voltage from any input leg to ground can not exceed X volts. X is defined in the main manual that I referenced. HAAS only defined two ways to ground the delta source.

The problem that EATDIRT has is to determine whether within any of the machines he has to work with:

Is there some moderately low impedance path from any input leg to the machine chassis? If there was such a connection, then it would cause a line to neutral short on a center grounded Y system.

.
 

tryinghard

Senior Member
Location
California
110130-1149 EST

tryinghard:...The problem that EATDIRT has is to determine whether within any of the machines he has to work with:

Is there some moderately low impedance path from any input leg to the machine chassis? If there was such a connection, then it would cause a line to neutral short on a center grounded Y system...

He can check but it most likely is not mis-wired this way.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
A separate earth ground is required for three-phase power. Conduit type ground will not be sufficient.
I love this kind of requirement. I see it periodically. A lot of CNC techs are absolutely convinced of the need to drive a ground rod right at the machine.
 

wawireguy

Senior Member
When I wire at the new location using 120/208/Y I just hook up the A,B,C phases? like I would any 3 phase machine? Do I need to reconfigure any wiring in the machine.

You're hooking up EXPENSIVE equipment. You better talk to the owners and the manufacturer about this. No way am I going to take responsibility for their 500K machinery. They need to tell you what to provide.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
110201-1936 EST

Many CNC machine suppliers, builders, or whatever have problems solving RS232 communication problems. Generally the problems result from a ground path noise between the data source and destination (computer and CNC).

In an effort to solve this problem they mistakenly make some not very successful adjustments to the grounding system, and some that are potentially very dangerous.

Because I sell an electrical isolation system I quite obviously think that isolation is a good solution in many cases, and it can be very effective. But on to some of the bad things that suppliers suggest.

One of the worst methods and very unsafe is to disconnect the EGC from the machine, and install a local ground rod at that particular machine. This is a code violation, and dangerous.

Another unsafe one is to leave the CNC EGC correctly connected, but at the computer cut off the EGC pin on the power plug. This floats the computer chassis from its EGC and has the computer chassis only connected to the CNC chassis. If there is a disparity in ground potential at the computer desk relative to the CNC, then there is the possibility of a shock hazard at the computer.

Less of a safety problem is to add a supplementary ground rod at the CNC. In this case the machine's EGC is still connected correctly. Usually this makes only a very marginal reduction in the noise problem. But it adds a grounding path for lightning or other currents within the building EGC. Also provides a closed loop path for galvanic corrosion currents.

Noise voltages of 3 volts in an RS232 communication path may cause data errors and 25 V component failure. It is not unlikely under some fault conditions to get 100s to a 1000 V on the ground path.

.
 

tryinghard

Senior Member
Location
California
110201-1936 EST
Many CNC machine suppliers, builders, or whatever have problems solving RS232 communication problems. Generally the problems result from a ground path noise between the data source and destination (computer and CNC)....It is not unlikely under some fault conditions to get 100s to a 1000 V on the ground path.

gar, If correct equipment grounding exists between the circuit source and equipment as well as the source computer the only resistance will be the equipment grounding conductor itself, (should be extremely minimal if any ? closest to zero potential). Unlike earth which will have high resistance for sure.

If the noise you?re talking about is objectionable current (improper neutral to ground bonding - like 250.6) it should be fixed. This current is only seeking its source not earth.
 

skeshesh

Senior Member
Location
Los Angeles, Ca
An interesting read as it pertains to the noise issues, but I must say that the advice is spread across the board and sounds like many are based on experiences with certain brands / machines. Taking the original question and the best outcome for the OP into consideration, I really believe it's necessary to contact the mfg. and get proper information/diagrams with documentation of correspondence from them. As mentioned some of these machines are relatively costly so in most cases facilities/management would have documentation/contact info tucked away. I suggest digging out the contact and having the vendor assist closely.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
110202-1202 EST

tryinghard:

If correct equipment grounding exists between the circuit source and equipment as well as the source computer the only resistance will be the equipment grounding conductor itself, (should be extremely minimal if any – closest to zero potential). Unlike earth which will have high resistance for sure.

The assumptions of your statement do not fit reality. What is "correct equipment grounding"? EGCs are not essentially 0 resistance.

The discussion needs to be broken into two parts --- fault, and normal conditions.

First, an example of a fault condition in a very simple form. The power system as seen at the main panel will be assumed to be very stiff, a low impedance (1 V drop in supply voltage at 2000 A). This is a 120 V supply. Connect 100 ft of #12 Romex with ground. Today this means the EGC is also #12. The resistance of #12 is about 0.16 ohms for 100 ft. Total resistance of 200 ft of #12 is 0.32 ohms. 0.32 ohms across 120 V equals 375 A. A 375 load on this panel produces a voltage drop of about 0.2 V. Thus, ignore this drop.

At the end of this 100 ft run of Romex short the hot wire to the EGC. What is the voltage of this shorted point relative to the neutral point at the main panel? It is 60 V RMS or 85 V peak. This will destroy RS232 components.


Second, consider normal conditions. Do you really believe that in normal conditions that no current flows in EGC conductors? If you do, then you have never measured voltage drops along such conductors.

That the code says there should be no current flow on the EGC does not mean there will not be. At this moment, at home, if I measure the voltage drop on the EGC from my main panel to may work bench with a Fluke 27 the result is 0.021 V. If I activate my TED power monitor, then this jumps between 0.021 and about 0.060 V every second. TED uses a carrier current system for communication.

You can not just consider resistance. The inductive reactance is also important. At 115.2 kbaud the minimum bit period is 8.7 microseconds. Thus, the effect of inductive reactance is probably about 1000 times greater than at 60 Hz.

I had one customer with two HAAS machines side by side. Just enough room to walk between the machine enclosures. One to two years difference between date of manufacture. Otherwise essentially the same model machines. One machine worked fine in drip feed mode, the other was impossible.

HAAS said there was nothing wrong with the machine that had communication problems. The was based on using a laptop to drip feed to the problem machine, it worked. Thus, the HAAS dealer said the problem was the RS232 source. It should be noted the laptop was either run on battery or the power cord was a two conductor type.

Each machine had added to it a supplementary ground rod. The normal EGC was intact. Power to the machine was from an overhead bus. Power to the computer was from a wall outlet. RS232 cable length was about 100 ft.

With a Simpson 270 on AC about 1 V difference appeared between the two machines. This could mean the peak noise voltage might be 4 to 5 V. The EGC from the bus duct to the machine was about 30 ft. Thus, about 60 ft of EGC wire from one machine to the other. The two ground rods were about 6 to 8 ft apart.

It should be noted that with the problem machine servos off there was no RS232 communication problem. Also the problem machine did not interfere with the other machine.

I installed our RS232 isolator and the problem was solved and further operation was possible at 115.2 kbaud.

The real cause of the problem was noise generated by the brushless servos in the newer machine. The older machine had DC servos. So truly the HAAS machine had a problem, and likely a design problem.

There are all sorts of ground path noise sources and just by doing an installation per the NEC does not guarantee there won't be a problem.

If you measure a voltage with a normal voltmeter (not electrostatic), then there is a current related to that voltage.

.
 
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