Wiring pool equipment from existing garage panel question?

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ritelec

ritelec

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Jersey
An inground pool will have two motors and an ionizer.

I'm directed to an existing garage panel..

the panel is older GE fed main lug with 9 single pole breakers in it..

I'm thinking it should have a main breaker installed and to add a couple of ground rods.


The feeder is 6's and a 10 thru 1"pvc..

the 10 grd and 6 neutral are together on the neutral bar which will need to be separated..


At the main panel, the feeder is #6 AC I think??

The inside of the panel at the connector looks to be more of a rigid pipe entry and not an AC (bx) connector??? there is no ground conductor, everything is sheet-rocked around the panel and basement..
There was a small opening for the H2O meter That I was able to shine some light up at that part of the outside of the panel.. again, I'm guessing it's AC.

The basement is closed in with sheetrock...I can't locate the conduit where it leaves the building to go out to the garage. It looks like the building has had two additions added toward the garage, maybe the existing foundation before the first or second foundation has the garage feed conduit?

Either way, I removed the 10 thhn at the garage and checked for voltage phase to that ground and get the 120v so guessing and hoping someone did the right thing where the bx(?) and the pvc are spliced.

The question.

I looked at the ucc for jersey and I believe we are under the 2011 code.

nec 2011
680.25(A)(1) exception says existing feeder to panelboard to be run in flexible metal conduit or an approved cable assembly that includes an equipment ground conductor within the outer sheath. (2014 states insulated ground conductor)

Is that saying flexible metal conduit (AC) is one option, and cable assembly with a ground conductor is another option.
OR
Is that saying that the FMC needs a ground conductor and also the cable assembly needs a ground conductor?

Thank you..

Happy Memorial Day
 
Condensed.

As per 680.25(A)(1)exception
Does FMC (armor clad) require a ground conductor in addition to its outer sheath?


Thank you
 
ritelec said:
Condensed.

As per 680.25(A)(1)exception
Does FMC (armor clad) require a ground conductor in addition to its outer sheath?


Thank you
Click to expand...
Look at 680.25(B) to find that an insulated wire EGC is required for most feeders even if the raceway qualifies as an EGC for other purposes.
 
Okay. Thank you.

It does refer back to that exception though.

How is that exception sentence read ?

FMC "and". ... Or FMC "or"
 
ritelec said:
Okay. Thank you.

It does refer back to that exception though.

How is that exception sentence read ?

FMC "and". ... Or FMC "or"
Click to expand...
Simple, the reference is to existing feeders where the exception in (A) applies.
The tricky part is, as you noticed, whether it refers to "existing FMC which contains a (non-insulated?) EGC" of just "FMC" and the requirement for a wire EGC only applies to cables.
I do not think it is at all clear, so looking at the Handbook and the records around the adoption of that section may give some guidance. But in the short term the interpretation is up to your AHJ.
 
FMC and AC cable may look similar but are not the same thing either. One is a raceway one is a cable assembly.
 
So what does that tell me?

I'm thinking that tells me that if the feeder is in raceway or cable assembly, they want to see a grounding conductor.

Thank you.
 
Last edited:
ritelec said:
So what does that tell me?

I'm thinking that tells me that if the feeder is in raceway or cable assembly, they want to see a grounding conductor.

Thank you.
Click to expand...
For a new installation yes, and they want it to be an insulated grounding conductor as well. For an existing feeder supplying a separate building - not necessarily, but the do want it to comply with 250.32(B). Which it should anyway but for some reason if it doesn't, the fact they reference it IMO means you need to fix it if it doesn't comply if you are going to add art 680 covered equipment.
 
Okay. Read that now I'm confused again.

Also read into 250.118

The outer sheath of the ac cable is the ground. And the ground conductor.

So it does not need to be a wire to be a conductor.

But then the 680 references. Conductor in the outer sheath. So I guess if there where two outer sheaths it may work. ??


So as to stop my confusion. Please let me know. Grounded wire conductor from the service to the garage. ???

I already mentioned to the pool man that thats what is needed. I have also mentioned that the ground wire needed to come from where it was born which I liked from some searches here. I liked that born thing.

Thank you
 
ritelec said:
Okay. Read that now I'm confused again.

Also read into 250.118

The outer sheath of the ac cable is the ground. And the ground conductor.

So it does not need to be a wire to be a conductor.

But then the 680 references. Conductor in the outer sheath. So I guess if there where two outer sheaths it may work. ??


So as to stop my confusion. Please let me know. Grounded wire conductor from the service to the garage. ???

I already mentioned to the pool man that thats what is needed. I have also mentioned that the ground wire needed to come from where it was born which I liked from some searches here. I liked that born thing.

Thank you
Click to expand...
Do you have a separate building with AC cable as the wiring method for it's supply feeder that also complies with 320.10 and .12? I guess it is possible but not something you would see on a regular basis and would be mostly limited to two buildings attached to one another yet by construction methods be permitted to be considered separate buildings.
 
kwired said:
Do you have a separate building with AC cable as the wiring method for it's supply feeder that also complies with 320.10 and .12? I guess it is possible but not something you would see on a regular basis and would be mostly limited to two buildings attached to one another yet by construction methods be permitted to be considered separate buildings.
Click to expand...

I believe it is AC cable in the house from the front of the house toward the back of the house. From the back somewhere maybe from one of the two additions it becomes pvc with thhn in it.

I would have to crawl in to a few crawl areas to see if I could even the find the splice.

All I could see was the inside of the panel. The conductors where blk,red,wht. The thread entering the inside of the panel looked straighter and alittle longer than the thread on a BX connector. Looked more like pipe thread than a BX connector. But by the wires and the colors and the way they had that little twist to it, I'm thinking BX (AC cable).....

AC cable or metal conduit.........

Either should require a egc (wire) for pool equipment? Right?

The metal conduit raceway or outer metal sheath raceway as a ground is good for a detached garage panel, but NOT approved as ground for feeders to a existing panel in a detached garage that would be used to supply a feeder to a pool panel ... Correct??

Sorry... In this whole thing I may not have mentioned the word detached... the garage is a separate building.

Thank you..
 
For my head. To the pool man and for future reference.

Feeders to sub panels, be it to an attached or other building would require a separate egc
Which is a wire. Uninsulated pre 2014 is ok.


In single family residence
Wiring methods in chapter three are ok indoors for pool motors and hot tubs.

I have to go crawl into an attic right now but will look into the egc of that circuit

Would it need a egc which is a wire, or would the outer sheath of BX or the metal raceway of conduit suffice ?

Up to the attic I go.
 
You bring up a good question in this post:
ritelec said:
Condensed.

As per 680.25(A)(1)exception
Does FMC (armor clad) require a ground conductor in addition to its outer sheath?


Thank you
Click to expand...
Unless it is old AC cable without added bonding strip inside, then the sheath is not a good EGC for any purpose, but they do not clarify if it is good enough for your application, in general it should be considered a better EGC then metal raceway alone.

Next question is does the PVC to the garage have an EGC installed in it or is it an old enough install that it was permitted to install a grounding electrode in the grounded conductor (neutral) at the separate structure and derive a new EGC at the main disconnect in the separate building? I believe 2014 NEC would allow you to connect to that from what I see but it does show there was change to that section and not sure what the change was. (250.32(B) is the only text highlighted as changed but doesn't look like that reference target changed?)
 
To the detached garage is 3-6's and a 10 egc

Backing up here.

Are you saying that a bx feeder with no egc in its outer sheath is ok for a feeder to a detached garage for a pool ?

Are you also saying that if it were an older feeder where a 3 wire was brought to the detached garage with no ground. That that grounded and neutral bonded sub panel in the detached garage would be ok to feed a pool panel?
 
ritelec said:
To the detached garage is 3-6's and a 10 egc

Backing up here.

Are you saying that a bx feeder with no egc in its outer sheath is ok for a feeder to a detached garage for a pool ?
Click to expand...
Not saying it is compliant, but saying the purpose of the bonding wire in the AC cable is to make it a better EGC, have no idea if the NEC considers that good enough for your application. But am leaning toward the fact they generally want an insulated equipment grounding conductor so probably is not acceptable.

ritelec said:
Are you also saying that if it were an older feeder where a 3 wire was brought to the detached garage with no ground. That that grounded and neutral bonded sub panel in the detached garage would be ok to feed a pool panel?
Click to expand...
Did not look up what changed between 2011 and 2014 last time I posted. Here is what the difference is that effects this kind of application:

680.25(B)(2)

2011:
(2) Separate Buildings.
A feeder to a separate building or structure shall be permitted to supply swimming pool equipment branch circuits, or feeders supplying swimming pool equipment branch circuits, if the grounding arrangements in the separate building meet the requirements in 250.32(B).Where installed in other than existing feeders covered in 680.25(A), Exception, a separate equipment grounding conductor shall be an insulated conductor.

Blue text above was eliminated in the 2014.

2014:
(2) Separate Buildings.
A feeder to a separate building or structure shall be permitted to supply swimming pool equipment branch circuits, or feeders supplying swimming pool equipment branch circuits, if the grounding arrangements in the separate building meet the requirements in 250.32(B)

I think either year you could use the three wire feeder to a separate building as long as it met requirements of 250.32(B) to supply pool equipment, deleted material from 2011 seems to be kind of redundant wording and is probably why it was eliminated.
 
kwired said:
Not saying it is compliant, but saying the purpose of the bonding wire in the AC cable is to make it a better EGC, have no idea if the NEC considers that good enough for your application. But am leaning toward the fact they generally want an insulated equipment grounding conductor so probably is not acceptable.

Did not look up what changed between 2011 and 2014 last time I posted. Here is what the difference is that effects this kind of application:

680.25(B)(2)

2011:
(2) Separate Buildings.
A feeder to a separate building or structure shall be permitted to supply swimming pool equipment branch circuits, or feeders supplying swimming pool equipment branch circuits, if the grounding arrangements in the separate building meet the requirements in 250.32(B).Where installed in other than existing feeders covered in 680.25(A), Exception, a separate equipment grounding conductor shall be an insulated conductor.

Blue text above was eliminated in the 2014.

2014:
(2) Separate Buildings.
A feeder to a separate building or structure shall be permitted to supply swimming pool equipment branch circuits, or feeders supplying swimming pool equipment branch circuits, if the grounding arrangements in the separate building meet the requirements in 250.32(B)

I think either year you could use the three wire feeder to a separate building as long as it met requirements of 250.32(B) to supply pool equipment, deleted material from 2011 seems to be kind of redundant wording and is probably why it was eliminated.
Click to expand...

So looking like the egc shall be sized in accordance with 250.122 which would make it a wire, not raceway or outer sheath.
Exception: all requirements are met........... (1) no equipment ground conductor run with supply (which there is)

Really looks like wire egc is required to pools...Thank you...good stuff
 
hot tub question I had a couple posts back.

680.42(C)...................... copper equipment grounding conductor that is insulated or enclosed within the outer sheath of the wiring method................

AC cable with outer sheath as ground is a NG............
 
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