Wiring Wall Mtd Lights

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Alwayslearningelec

Senior Member
Location
NJ
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Estimator
If you had this scenario how would you route the conduits.

1. Would you run the norm conduits up to ceiling and use a a tee condulet.
2. Can you run the norm conduits directly into the fixture if you are not splicing although each fixture shows a "J" so I assume a j-box is needed for each fixture. I only have about 30 fixtures total.
 

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I would be looking at fixture specs and the A and if required the S pages for that area before I made any decision.
 
I would guess from that image that conduit would be run in the wall to an appropriate box that the fixture would be installed on. A cut sheet for the fixture should give you a definate answer though. Unless it is a surface mount fixture designed for conduit entry and your conduit is running on the same mounting surface.
 
DavidA said:
I would guess from that image that conduit would be run in the wall to an appropriate box that the fixture would be installed on. A cut sheet for the fixture should give you a definate answer though. Unless it is a surface mount fixture designed for conduit entry and your conduit is running on the same mounting surface.
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Yes the fixtures are surface mounted... Concrete wall... Sorry
 
Then the fixture will determine if you need a j-box behind it or not. And use of a 'T' or other junction will be determined by if you can hit the first light directly with a conduit before branching out to the sides.
 
IMO, A designer or engineer is showing a junction because they are usually showing or implying; 1) a usuage of circuit(s),or 2) a transition in the usage of a circuit.
 
This is stuff the guys in the field are going to do whatever way they want, they will not care how you decided it will be during the biding.
 
iwire said:
This is stuff the guys in the field are going to do whatever way they want, they will not care how you decided it will be during the biding.
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Thanks I appreciate it. But even though this is very small and most stuff I take off is.. I like to be as close to actual install as possible
 
horsegoer said:
Thanks I appreciate it. But even though this is very small and most stuff I take off is.. I like to be as close to actual install as possible
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Actually Horsegoer, this is where you are wrong in my opinion. Unless you have years of experience with the installation and you are either going to DICTATE to another Journeyman or do the work yourself, that should not be your goal. Your goal should be to get as close as possible to the AVERAGE cost of the man in the field to install this system. It is not how they do it, but how much they do it for that matters.
 
horsegoer said:
Thanks I appreciate it. But even though this is very small and most stuff I take off is.. I like to be as close to actual install as possible
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To put it bluntly you are wasting your time.

The guys in the field are going to do it their own way, not the estimators way.

The way they will do it will be based on a long list of things that cannot be predicted months ahead of time at a plan desk.
 
iwire said:
To put it bluntly you are wasting your time.

The guys in the field are going to do it their own way, not the estimators way.

The way they will do it will be based on a long list of things that cannot be predicted months ahead of time at a plan desk.
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I understand your point but what long list of things? That it pretty scary that the actual install could vary that much from the estimate thus making for a bad estimate.....or good I guess.
 
horsegoer said:
I understand your point but what long list of things? That it pretty scary that the actual install could vary that much from the estimate thus making for a bad estimate.....or good I guess.
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He probably misspoke a little with the words can not. If you want to spend a week or two going over every architectural, civil and structural plan, to build the entire job in your head. figure out where every wall penetration is, every sprinkler pipe, mechanical duct, header, window, etc. Wall construction, tilt up, block, poured in place, surface mount or in the wall, how much furring and insulation on the exterior walls, roughed in underground or overhead, the schedule that the GC has. So do you have enough time to put things above the moisture barrier, or below the moisture barrier, or only some stuff. If you don't understand the exact impact of every item I listed above, then double or triple your review time, because you also need to research the impact. So you CAN predict them, but if you are me, and I try to estimate 20 - 30 million dollars worth of work a year along with Project Managing, you don't want to.
 
horsegoer said:
I understand your point but what long list of things? That it pretty scary that the actual install could vary that much from the estimate thus making for a bad estimate.....or good I guess.
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I admit, I don't work at an office, and if I did I would fail catastrophically; but I have had the pleasure of working for some good companies who got it right.

To me both Iwire and Strathead are saying the same thing. Iwire is saying there is no way to know. Strathead is saying even if you could there is not enough hours in the day to get it all figured out; and his list didn't include working around other trades who are in the same space at the same time. Dealing with that is as much a lesson in psychology as anything else.

To get it right you don't focus on extremely specific job-site conditions . You don't even try. You base things on good tracking of past jobs, and a well written change order form. Anything else is just spinning your wheels.
 
Estimating

Estimating

It takes a little more extra time, but when I estimate a job and I do certain things on certain circuits to try to cut a little cost, I always make a little note on the drawings, so that when my foreman gets the drawings, he has an idea of how I planned on doing certain portions of the job. Obvious routing and conduit runs I do not try to explain, but anyway I can save cost I let them know about thru notes and hope that it will get translated into the installation.
 
cadpoint
IMO, A designer or engineer is showing a junction because they are usually showing or implying; 1) a usuage of circuit(s),or 2) a transition in the usage of a circuit.
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What do you mean a "usage of circuit"? Your always using circuits...
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What I meant and didn?t explain or expand on earlier, is that the take off (OP-picture) even noted with different colors that this light (EM) is different from another light, this designation has a different circuit. If one studies the drawing the lights are labeled in two different ways. One is clear and one is slashed and half filled with EM, beside it!

It has been accounted for but what does it mean to the estimator or the installer. There has to be one of three things that are going on.(six if One reads past "Any") So it comes down to what the type of structure that it?s to be installed in/on. What do the specifications say about running LPS & EM circuits? Are these EM lights always on?

Any institutional work, I?ve even done, that has a LPS or EM lights that might or might not be on a generator have always be specified to be run independent of other circuits!

Others have mentioned that it depends on the light that is specified. The Code does allow the light itself to be a wire way if the light is listed as such. Just install the light and run two circuits. Thus a junction box might be created.

Respectful of the light itself, an example is; what is in the interior of these EM lights is there anything that makes it different? Maybe nothing at all! Maybe it could have a battery backup. Or it could solely be operational only on a generator.

BTW, I never saw a ?J? in a circle or a ?J? in a box? in your picture?

My belief is that there will be two circuits for this string of lights.
 
iwire said:
To put it bluntly you are wasting your time.

The guys in the field are going to do it their own way, not the estimators way.

The way they will do it will be based on a long list of things that cannot be predicted months ahead of time at a plan desk.
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Really?
The guys in the field will be briefed on my takeoff, how I interpreted the install, and we will agree on a method that meets or beats the estimated material/labor hrs......Period.

Having said that, horsegoer you get hung up a lot on things that don't make a hill of beans in the estimate.
Your job is to come up with a method of install based on architectural/structural details, difficulty conditions, get quotes, to come up with a BOM and labor hours to win a job and not lose money doing it.
Sometimes it's good to visit with your field lead man to discuss how you would do something for a bid. But when you ask us if we would use a T-condulet, how the heck would we know?
If I knew a transition was needed to surface mount fixtures, I would figure using worst case to cover myself, then when I get the job, my electrician may have a cheaper solution.
 
cdslotz said:
Really?
The guys in the field will be briefed on my takeoff, how I interpreted the install, and we will agree on a method that meets or beats the estimated material/labor hrs......Period.

Having said that, horsegoer you get hung up a lot on things that don't make a hill of beans in the estimate.
Your job is to come up with a method of install based on architectural/structural details, difficulty conditions, get quotes, to come up with a BOM and labor hours to win a job and not lose money doing it.
Sometimes it's good to visit with your field lead man to discuss how you would do something for a bid. But when you ask us if we would use a T-condulet, how the heck would we know?
If I knew a transition was needed to surface mount fixtures, I would figure using worst case to cover myself, then when I get the job, my electrician may have a cheaper solution.
Click to expand...

Wow..I understand......I got it......Good point.
 
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