Working Hot

[infinity]

That is such a stupid response, you have the choice de-energize. To work live you need to justify it and use an EEWP assesing the hazards. I guarantee 99% of electricians have no idea how to assess the hazards, which is why the new labeling requirements are so key to provide that info.

I agree.

They are slim but there are 2,000 arc flash victim sent to burn units each year and 1,200 fatal electric shocks of electricial workers each year. Those are some big numbers, and they are nearly all preventable.

True, and again I'm not advocating live work, just pointing out that the average guy in the field does not find the risk of getting hurt very great.

 

[Volta]

. . . I gaurantee 99% of electricians have no idea how to assess the hazards . . .

plus

. . . just pointing out that the average guy in the field does not find the risk of getting hurt very great.

seems to equal the need for 70-E compliance.

 

[scottam99]

Just 2 weeks ago here in the Treasure Coast of Florida an electrician was killed wiring a dryer circuit under a mobil home. The risk is never worth it. When discussing what happened with friends they were a lot more appreciative of what we do out there every day. At least I know none of them would ever want me to work a circuit hot any more.

 

[neutral]

That is such a stupid response, you have the choice de-energize. To work live you need to justify it and use an EEWP assesing the hazards. I gaurantee 99% of electricians have no idea how to assess the hazards, which is why the new labeling requirements are so key to provide that info.

Are you in the 1% or 99% group? I agree you should always turn off power before working on the circuit, but I have worked on live circuits before and will continue to do so when necessary to complete a job. I might get killed but that?s the risk of doing the job. I doubt that 99% of the Electricians on this forum are as uneducated as you think. I suppose all the Iron workers will have to do all their work at ground level now?
An average of 114 people dies each day in the US from automobile accidents. That's 41,610 a year
I?m more likely to be killed going to work than doing my job.
I have made my point and I?m done

 

[zog]

Are you in the 1% or 99% group? I agree you should always turn off power before working on the circuit, but I have worked on live circuits before and will continue to do so when necessary to complete a job. I might get killed but that?s the risk of doing the job. I doubt that 99% of the Electricians on this forum are as uneducated as you think. I suppose all the Iron workers will have to do all their work at ground level now?
An average of 114 people dies each day in the US from automobile accidents. That's 41,610 a year
I?m more likely to be killed going to work than doing my job.
I have made my point and I?m done

So your point is you know you might get killed working hot and will continue to do so? Even though it goes against OSHA rules?

I am not saying the 99% are uneducated, it is just calculating Incident Energy is not part of many electrical training programs. Thats why the labeling requirements exist.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Are you in the 1% or 99% group? I agree you should always turn off power before working on the circuit, but I have worked on live circuits before and will continue to do so when necessary to complete a job. I might get killed but that?s the risk of doing the job. I doubt that 99% of the Electricians on this forum are as uneducated as you think. I suppose all the Iron workers will have to do all their work at ground level now?
An average of 114 people dies each day in the US from automobile accidents. That's 41,610 a year
I?m more likely to be killed going to work than doing my job.
I have made my point and I?m done

Sorry, but the math is not correct.

A more accurate comparison would be to divide the number of deaths from auto accidents by the number of drivers/riders and divide the number of deaths from electrical work by the number of working electricians. It would be interesting to see that comparison.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Just older, if you were wiser you would not do any live taps

70E is pretty straightforward.

turn it off. quit whining. quit soaking your leather outer gloves in
testosterone. shut up, and go turn it off.

unless it's more dangerous to turn it off, than to leave it on.

large shop in this area had TWO people die from electrocution in
the same year. this was a while back.

the osha fine on the second occurrence, to the contractor, had
two commas in the amount. so much for the slap on the wrist.

they have simple policies regarding this.
working live without proper ppe? immediate termination.

cup-L-taps and other hot tapping insulated blocks work well
for permanent couplings. they are approved for the purpose.

clamping them on hot? i've done it, after i've meggered the
stuff i'm tapping on, and know it's not grounded, and has good
dielectric strength. is it approved for hot tap applications
under nfpa 70E? you'd have to read the UL white paper on the
specific device you were planning on using, and i'd be very
surprised if it was approved for hot tap work. common sense
tells me no way, given how 70E is crafted.

i have no desire to see what "bolted fault" current looks like
when i'm the one turning the bolt.

 

[brother]

Worth at least a read considring the topic.

I always thought they removed the 'illumination' exception, or was that NFPA 70e that did that??

 

[SG-1]

All of my standard work is done live, because it is all diagnostic. Specific proceedures are used to connect & disconnect power sources for testing. As soon as any re-wiring is required all power is turned off and the connection(s) are removed.

 

[kilewatt2002]

working it hot

working it hot

Once again this subject raises its head
For those of us who do this on a regular basis we do it by the numbers
with the right gear each & every time. We dont cut corners or get in a
hurry. #1 rule is electricity will kill you. If you have to work it hot do it by
the numbers. If you arent comfortable working things hot then by all means let
a qualified person do it. Electricity is known for not giving a second chance

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Once again this subject raises its head
For those of us who do this on a regular basis we do it by the numbers
with the right gear each & every time. We dont cut corners or get in a
hurry. #1 rule is electricity will kill you. If you have to work it hot do it by
the numbers. If you arent comfortable working things hot then by all means let
a qualified person do it. Electricity is known for not giving a second chance

Qualified really has nothing to do with the issue, and for that matter neither does PPE. The issue is the fact that electricians are working in cases where it is not permitted (that would be most of the cases where things are being worked hot, as the permission to work hot is very, very limited, other than troubleshooting). Neither the qualification nor the PPE insure the safety of the worker.

 

[brother]

This is a timely post. I just know of a couple of guys that in order to get a job done, They did use the ppe to land a breaker in a 208 panel. The reason behind this is that alot of the circuits in that panel wasnt accurate and this was in a 'sensitive' area.

If they followed the letter of the NFPA 70e then this would not be a justified 'hot work' . Its sad to say, but because of inaccurate prints/panel schedules etc.. that this is the reason of the hot work being done.

 

[iwire]

This is a timely post. I just know of a couple of guys that in order to get a job done, They did use the ppe to land a breaker in a 208 panel. The reason behind this is that alot of the circuits in that panel wasnt accurate and this was in a 'sensitive' area.

If they followed the letter of the NFPA 70e then this would not be a justified 'hot work' . Its sad to say, but because of inaccurate prints/panel schedules etc.. that this is the reason of the hot work being done.

That does not make a bit of sense.

So instead of a planed shutdown of a 'sensitive' area they rolled the dice and could have had an unplanned shutdown that would last for a much longer time then a planed shutdown.

 

[ohmhead]

Well what about thishttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s8x2efUY5c

High power job

 

[Jerry Roberts]

I completely agree. Unscheduled power outages happen and tenants/customers live with it. So how can it be such a big deal if you do schedule it?

Tell the owner/landlord/customer to make up 50 flyers about the upcoming power outage and drop them in the tenants mailboxes. Problem solved. You schedule it during the day when everyone is at work and you might have what, maybe 50% or less of the tenants home? Do you really think it's worth risking your life for the hour or two or whatever you need to shut the power off just for those few people?

Totally agree. Well stated.

 

[hkme]

Safety goals

Safety goals

My goal is not so much to be a good electrician, but to be an old electrician!

 

[sii]

So as an industrial maintenance electrician, how do I make my employer understand electrical safety? I gave my boss a copy of 70E about three months ago (I knew he was in the process of re-writing all of the company's safety procedures), a week later he returned it and said, "could you go through this and write down all of the rules we have to follow, I don't have time to go through the whole thing."

My reply was that we are required to follow the whole thing, to which I just got a :-?.

I just came back from vacation yesterday to a stack of safety handouts on my desk. Eight pages about proper lifting, six pages about MSDS and another 20 or so about random items. I have to sign a "proof of receipt" report for every single page. Care to guess how many regarding electrical safety?

I think that the situation a maintenance elec is in is unique, at least it is at my employer and I'm sure there are others out there exactly the same:

1. I cannot convince my co-workers or superiors that hot work is unacceptable.

2. Although I may not be "officially punished" for shutting a production machine down for maintenance, I can guarantee you that I will be looked upon less favorably by my superiors.

3. I cannot afford to buy ALL of the neccessary PPE to work the equipment hot yet they will not purchase it for me/us. As far as they are concerned, a good pair of welding gloves is sufficient. I have purchased, out of my own pocket, voltage rated gloves and a FR jacket which I wear if neccessary.

4. I GUARANTEE you that if I was ever injured in an electrical accident, it would be looked at as my fault.

Do I have a choice, to work hot? Yes. Is it a choice that is easy as black and white? No.

We have untrained machine operators in MCC's all the time, resetting starters and other things of that nature. They are told to "do what you gotta do" to keep the machine running. They have no concept of what can happen, yet are completely willing to stick their hands and anything else in a panel with no regard. It's frustrating as heck but I have tried many times to stop people and have been told "I've been shocked before, it's no big deal."

What does one have to do to get the point across?

 

[zog]

So as an industrial maintenance electrician, how do I make my employer understand electrical safety? I gave my boss a copy of 70E about three months ago (I knew he was in the process of re-writing all of the company's safety procedures), a week later he returned it and said, "could you go through this and write down all of the rules we have to follow, I don't have time to go through the whole thing."

My reply was that we are required to follow the whole thing, to which I just got a :-?.

I just came back from vacation yesterday to a stack of safety handouts on my desk. Eight pages about proper lifting, six pages about MSDS and another 20 or so about random items. I have to sign a "proof of receipt" report for every single page. Care to guess how many regarding electrical safety?

See this all the time, just lazy. Handing a guy like that a standard won't help. go to the OSHA website and look up some letters of interpretation on conpliance, it will be very clear that your facility needs to comply. You can also find some info inthe FAQ's of this section of the forum.

I think that the situation a maintenance elec is in is unique, at least it is at my employer and I'm sure there are others out there exactly the same:

Yes it is, I spent the last 15 years getting companies like yours (Auto plants, steel mills, etc..) into compliance and it can be tricky but is required to comply by OSHA. Needs to start from the top.

1. I cannot convince my co-workers or superiors that hot work is unacceptable.

Again, needs to start from the top, the problem you get into at a place like your is if only one guy tries to be safe he gets ousted and the supervisor finds someone who will do it hot, needs to be the same across the board, thats where the training comes into play.

3. I cannot afford to buy ALL of the neccessary PPE to work the equipment hot yet they will not purchase it for me/us. As far as they are concerned, a good pair of welding gloves is sufficient. I have purchased, out of my own pocket, voltage rated gloves and a FR jacket which I wear if neccessary.

OSHA requires your employer to provide the needed PPE for you, this was a ruling that came out summer of 2008 and is very clear on the employers responsibility.

4. I GUARANTEE you that if I was ever injured in an electrical accident, it would be looked at as my fault.

By your plant, maybe, by OSHA, no. If everything you said above is true, they will go after your employer and your supervisor.

We have untrained machine operators in MCC's all the time, resetting starters and other things of that nature. They are told to "do what you gotta do" to keep the machine running. They have no concept of what can happen, yet are completely willing to stick their hands and anything else in a panel with no regard. It's frustrating as heck but I have tried many times to stop people and have been told "I've been shocked before, it's no big deal."

What does one have to do to get the point across?

Start with the 1st section of the 70E that covers the training requirements, very clear on this matter.

 

[sii]

OSHA requires your employer to provide the needed PPE for you, this was a ruling that came out summer of 2008 and is very clear on the employers responsibility.

I knew that they are required to provide it but are they required to pay for it or can they make it available but require us to pay?

 

[neutral]

Do you consider trouble shooting equipment, working in the power panels with power on to be working hot? To me that is normal and safe work for trained Maintenance Electricians. The repairs would be performed with the power off and secured such as it could not be turned on by anyone but the person performing the work...
If your co-workers are ok with procedures then you are beating a dead horse. I have over 30 years working as an industrial Electrician and found the company wanted the work force to be safe. We had a large Safety Department that developed Safe working procedures for every piece of equipment with lock-out tag-out and confined space entry programs in place.
If a person don't like the way a company manages safe work procedures, then maybe they should seek employment with another company.
A person spending too much time trying to change the company ways could be viewed as a trouble maker and find themselves doing some of or all the dirty but very safe work like cleaning the shop and or work areas.