Working it Hot

[ohm]

I would like to ask if there is an electrician out there who has never worked on a live circuit without proper PPA & training. And, when all the workers have attended necessary training is the boss off the hook?

 

[brian john]

Just a guess but maybe any electricians that do service of any type over the age of 26?

 

[mdshunk]

And, when all the workers have attended necessary training is the boss off the hook?

Doubt it. For instance, if your boss ordered you to do something contrary to your training, or if he has knowledge of you presently doing something contrary to your training, or if he has a long history of allowing unsafe acts to occur, contrary to your training; then I feel he's definitely be on the hook.

 

[peter d]

I would like to ask if there is an electrician out there who has never worked on a live circuit without proper PPA & training. And, when all the workers have attended necessary training is the boss off the hook?

In this day and age, I don't think any of that really makes a difference. If a death or serious injury occurs on the job, a few things are inevitable:

1) The company will get investigated by OSHA and likely be fined

2) The company will more than likely get sued by the family of the deceased or injured, or by the injured party.

3) If someone dies, the company will have a long, dark shadow cast over them that they will likely never be able to remove.

Because OSHA rules are so strict with regard to live work, IMO it will be awfully hard for a company to deny culpability in the event of an accident.

 

[jrannis]

I read that first sentence six times and still dont know what the question is

 

[wptski]

Some "may" say that training is so your employer can't be sued after you violate the rules and get injured.

 

[220/221]

I read that first sentence six times and still dont know what the question is

I got it in five.

Although poorly presented, the answer is no.

Every electrician has worked hot without PPA & training. Most likely troubleshooting. Kinda hard to do that with no power.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

The boss is never off the hook, no matter how much traing he has provided, even in the cases where the employee does not follow what he was taught.

 

[wptski]

The boss is never off the hook, no matter how much traing he has provided, even in the cases where the employee does not follow what he was taught.

Don't think that a boss can be held responsible in a court of law if a employee doesn't follow a rules that they had been trained in. Your trained in Lock Out procedures and you get hurt, who fault is that?

 

[nakulak]

Don't think that a boss can be held responsible in a court of law if a employee doesn't follow a rules that they had been trained in. Your trained in Lock Out procedures and you get hurt, who fault is that?

much of law is precedent. what the owner knows can hurt him. Let's say the owner had knowledge that ppe wasn't always being used, or wasn't used on a couple of occasions, or he hadn't gotten any bills in a long time for replacement ppe, or he had trained the employees on the use of ppe but hadn't trained them on the maintainance, or maybe the employees were trained but the foremen were enforcing it all the time, or the foremen weren't trained to enforce the use of it properly, or some of the guys didn't always use it, etc etc. The list goes on. In a lawyer's mind, there are a million reasons why someone else is always liable (even if the truth is that the injured party was the only one at fault.) My only point is this: don't think that just because you do everything practical that you will not be held liable if something goes wrong.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Don't think that a boss can be held responsible in a court of law if a employee doesn't follow a rules that they had been trained in. Your trained in Lock Out procedures and you get hurt, who fault is that?

Bill,
Maybe not in a court of law, but OSHA will cite the employer. Their position is that if the employee did wrong it was because the employee was not properly trained by the employer.

 

[wptski]

Bill,
Maybe not in a court of law, but OSHA will cite the employer. Their position is that if the employee did wrong it was because the employee was not properly trained by the employer.

I'm sure you had driver's training and passed a test? Who gets the speeding ticket, you or your trainer?

You sign in when you take the training. Where I worked, violation of Lock Out was automatic lose of balance of shift plus one day of pay. Never heard of OSHA catching anybody by surprise. OSHA fined my employer for having too stray cats in the plant! I'm not kidding.

 

[Strahan]

Doubt it. For instance, if your boss ordered you to do something contrary to your training, or if he has knowledge of you presently doing something contrary to your training, or if he has a long history of allowing unsafe acts to occur, contrary to your training; then I feel he's definitely be on the hook.

Check out NFPA 70's definition of a "qualified electrician" very vaque. We had an 8 hour training course from a NFPA 70 representative bottom line is you are responsible as the electrician to work in a safe manor. Our company has not bought us any required PPE pertaining to working on hot panels and dealing with arc flash, but when a line goes down we need to troubleshoot and do hot work. I brought this up in the training and the rep told us to get a signature from our boss allowing us to do hot work without the ppe and of course this never happens. So bottom line evrytime we work hot we take a chance and in this circumstance if we get hurt it would soley be our fault.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I'm sure you had driver's training and passed a test? Who gets the speeding ticket, you or your trainer?
You sign in when you take the training. Where I worked, violation of Lock Out was automatic lose of balance of shift plus one day of pay. Never heard of OSHA catching anybody by surprise. OSHA fined my employer for having too stray cats in the plant! I'm not kidding.

If there is an incident OSHA will be involved and if there were any safety violations, the employer will be cited. Yes, employers can enforce the safety rules as they see fit, but that has nothing to do with an OSHA citation for a violation. The fact that the employee has signed off on the training will make no difference. As far as the speeding ticket, it just isn't the same....the OSHA rules work much differently than any other types of rules.

 

[R Bob]

I'm sure you had driver's training and passed a test? Who gets the speeding ticket, you or your trainer?

You sign in when you take the training. Where I worked, violation of Lock Out was automatic lose of balance of shift plus one day of pay. Never heard of OSHA catching anybody by surprise. OSHA fined my employer for having too stray cats in the plant! I'm not kidding.

I worked for a company that had the exact same policy.

Their philosophy was that they provide safety equip and training and pay you by the hour to follow the safety policy. If caught violating the safety policy you go home. Do it too often and you become a liability.

 

[R Bob]

Bill,
Maybe not in a court of law, but OSHA will cite the employer. Their position is that if the employee did wrong it was because the employee was not properly trained by the employer.

I'm no lawyer, but I would think that an OSHA citation implies that an established safety standard has been violated and that would not be in the employer's best interest in a court room.

 

[brian john]

Don't think that a boss can be held responsible in a court of law if a employee doesn't follow a rules that they had been trained in. Your trained in Lock Out procedures and you get hurt, who fault is that?

Not in my expierence....I had two men hurt doing things they have BEEN told not to do. Lost both cases. Standing on top of a ladder and working something hot.

Actually lost because the insurance company felt it was easier to settle.

 

[wptski]

If there is an incident OSHA will be involved and if there were any safety violations, the employer will be cited. Yes, employers can enforce the safety rules as they see fit, but that has nothing to do with an OSHA citation for a violation. The fact that the employee has signed off on the training will make no difference. As far as the speeding ticket, it just isn't the same....the OSHA rules work much differently than any other types of rules.

Maybe ten years ago had a fellow employee sent on a job, violated Lock Out procedure. Lean into a station on a machine, made some switches somehow, a hydraulic clamp caught head and transfered. Half his was severed and he died instantly! The company wasn't sited for his death. They might have been sited for other violations but they weren't the cause of his death because he didn't follow the saftey rules.

Being trained for safe working practices does make a difference because now you know the rules, violate the rules, get hurt, it's your fault or sure should be.

 

[wptski]

Not in my expierence....I had two men hurt doing things they have BEEN told not to do. Lost both cases. Standing on top of a ladder and working something hot.

Actually lost because the insurance company felt it was easier to settle.

Being told and being trained are two different things.

 

[wptski]

I worked for a company that had the exact same policy.

Their philosophy was that they provide safety equip and training and pay you by the hour to follow the safety policy. If caught violating the safety policy you go home. Do it too often and you become a liability.

Remainder of the shift plus one day is the first offense. I forgot what happens the second time, probably a bit more time off if not termination.