Working without a permit

[goldstar]

Apparently there is still a lot of boot-legged work out there and even some ec's out there willing to do work without a permit. On a referral, I went to look at a hot tub installation on friday that this young lady needed to have installed "that day" !! When I pulled up to the house there was new siding being installed, a new deck on the rear of the house with the hot tub installed inside the far rear corner of the deck. No permit signs in the front window. After surveying the situation I realized that I had to run almost 100' of 6/3 MC in a hung ceiling of the basement working over piles of junk that were impossible to move. My price was high but I figured if I got the job the least I could do for myself was make some $$. Well, I almost got the job until I mentioned that I had to take out a permit. That seemed to be the "show-stopper". She said that I was the first contractor on the job to mention that I needed a permit. I didn't get the job and I left her crying on her front porch.

In my younger days I've left women crying, but never for this reason !!! I'll have to add this one to my scrap book. I though about turning her in to a township that has zero tolerance for boot-legged work but I don't want to have it on my conscience that she jumped off a roof because of my actions. I don't need that one in my scrap book. Anyone have any suggestions ?

 

[infinity]

Re: Working without a permit

People avoid permits for various reasons. The number one excuse I always hear is about their already astronomical taxes will go up even higher. In your case I would just walk away and not look back. But that's just me.

 

[jeff43222]

Re: Working without a permit

Yeah -- call the township and report the illegal work. There's a reason permits are required, and this woman isn't exempt because she is unreasonable and emotional.

I pull a permit whenever state law says I have to (i.e., just about every job I do), and I always make a note of it on the paperwork I give to customers. Most people I deal with are a little apprehensive about having an inspector in their homes, mainly because they think the inspector is going to go over the whole house with a fine-tooth comb and write up repair orders for every little thing they find. When I explain that the inspector is only going to be looking at the work I did, the customers are usually relieved. I've had a few people say that they flat-out didn't want a permit pulled. I walked.

If something ever goes wrong with your work and something bad happens, I'd bet the authorities would come down on you like a ton of bricks if you didn't pull a permit. As a licensed pro, you can't credibly claim ignorance about permits, so not having pulled one will make you more likely to be prosecuted. Whenever you read about electricians being prosecuted for manslaughter after an electrical accident, the story usually mentions that the electrician didn't pull a permit.

 

[bphgravity]

Re: Working without a permit

We have code enfocement officers that drive around allday looking for this kind-of stuff going on. Supposedly, the garabage workers notify the department if they have to haul away an old water heater or a whole bunch of lumber/scrap whatever.

You just can't imagine what becomes a real life and property hazard if proper installation and inspection aren't made. Here in Florida, you technically have to pull a permit to replace an outside air condensing or package unit. This was never really enforced and many hundreds if not thousands have been replaced over the last 40 years. In many cases the contractor would fail to tie-down the units and they would just sit on the ground or raised pad.

When Hurricane Charley came through, these a/c units were blown all over the place. They were ripped free of the electric and mechanical connections and tossed into the neighbors pool enclosure. My a/c unit ended up on its side and off the pad about 2 feet. Its little things like that where under normal conditions will be fine forever without inspection to ensure proper installation has occured.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Working without a permit

I use to work for a guy like that.A large percentage of his remodel jobs never got permitted.The GC was allmost always the same guy.The way it seemed to work out is the gc didn't want permits on many.So if the subs were guys that wanted permits then they don't get the job.

I kept a log of where i was every hour for 2 years.Often i wonder if i should perhaps go talk to the county and city.

As to an AC unit flying around i must say i never gave that any thinking.Mine weighs about 400 lbs.Perhaps i should tapcon it down

[ September 04, 2005, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Working without a permit

Curious about something.Does a homeowner have to permit an inspector on there property ?

[ September 04, 2005, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[pierre]

Re: Working without a permit

Jim
In answer to a homeowner permitting an inspector on his/her property -no.

This will set the wheels in motion though - a court hearing (with lawyers) and a judgement by the judge. In the last 2 years, my experience is the judge will rule that an inspector will have a set date to make the inspection. I have been involved in several of these in the last 6 months. One lady spent $5,000 in court and still lost - that one took 3 days - who makes out, the lawyers.

What most contractors seem to not realize is the permit and inspection do offer them some protection, and in a lot of cases it does not increase the taxes.

In defense of some of the people who don't want an inspection, some inspectors do overstep their authority and I can see why those people shy away from inspections.

 

[jeff43222]

Re: Working without a permit

Well, since an inspector is a government agent, I suppose he'd probably have to have a warrant to force his way in. I'm sure an inspector could go that route if it became necessary.

But I doubt they do that kind of thing except in extreme cases. The inspectors in my area are very busy dealing with people who do let inspectors in.

It's a lot easier when the violations are in plain sight outside the house. I heard a story from a customer recently where her neighbor put a big addition on the back of his house, but he never pulled any permits. He figured no one would really know, as it's only visible from the alley side of the house.

Guess who lived right across the alley from the guy. Yep -- a city inspector from the zoning department. Turns out that in addition to not pulling the proper permits, the new addition violated zoning laws. Guess how the hearing went. Yep -- ordered by the city to tear it all down.

 

[jeff43222]

Re: Working without a permit

Originally posted by pierre:

In defense of some of the people who don't want an inspection, some inspectors do overstep their authority and I can see why those people shy away from inspections.

I ran into a city inspector like that earlier this year. She tagged me to fix things I never touched, stuff that was obviously done a long time ago (e.g., improper K&T wiring). The inspector said she wouldn't close the permit I pulled unless I fixed the other stuff. I really didn't care if she closed it or not; I had already been paid. But the homeowner was in a jam since she wanted to sell the house, and the buyer's Realtor knew there was an open permit. So she paid me to fix the other stuff.

I asked a state inspector if they do the same thing, and he told me they aren't allowed to tag any work except what is listed on the permit. At most, they will suggest corrections if they happen to see something they think should be fixed.

Unfortunately, most of my work falls under city jurisdiction.

 

[iwire]

Re: Working without a permit

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Curious about something.Does a homeowner have to permit an inspector on there property ?

Well if you are unlucky enough to live in an area that adopted the rules in Article 80 the answer is yes.

I don't know if any place adopted these rules.

80.13(5)The authority having jurisdiction shall be authorized to inspect, at all reasonable times, any building or premises for dangerous or hazardous conditions or equipment as set forth in this Code. The authority having jurisdiction shall be permitted to order any person(s) to remove or remedy such dangerous or hazardous condition or equipment. Any person(s) failing to comply with such order shall be in violation of this Code.

 

[goldstar]

Re: Working without a permit

replace an outside air condensing or package unit. This was never really enforced and many hundreds if not thousands have been replaced over the last 40 years. In many cases the contractor would fail to tie-down the units and they would just sit on the ground or raised pad.

Bryan,

Funny you should mention this. The norm for AC contractors in my area is to set the condenser units (unsecured) on a pre-formed fiberglass pad. Some of the better ones will at least put down crushed stone or QP and set the pad on it. At my house the unit is in a shrub bed and they set it in mulch. But, I've seen many where it is set on the side of a house and shored up with pieces of flag stone, rocks, angle-iron, etc just to make it level. I'm not in a hurricane prone area but you can bet I'll be out there securing the unit to the pad this weekend. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[petersonra]

Re: Working without a permit

The primary reason for the permitting system is so that the local government agencies will know what building and remodeling is going on so they can raise your taxes afterwards.

It is understandable why people avoid permits, especially in already high tax areas.

 

[iwire]

Re: Working without a permit

Originally posted by petersonra:
The primary reason for the permitting system is so that the local government agencies will know what building and remodeling is going on so they can raise your taxes afterwards.

In my opinion that is absolute hog wash.

The primary reason for the inspection process is consumer protection.

Of course that should be expected from a guy that thinks wiring is an unskilled trade that needs no oversight. :roll:

 

[ryan_618]

Re: Working without a permit

Originally posted by petersonra:
The primary reason for the permitting system is so that the local government agencies will know what building and remodeling is going on so they can raise your taxes afterwards.

No, the main reason for the permitting system is regulating construction to meet a minimum standard. Read your history and take a look at what happened in the Chicago fire when buildings were constructed of non-rated materials and built next to each other. One building caught on fire that could have been put out, instead half of the city went down. Regulating the construction of buildings is the reason, it has nothing to do with taxes.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Re: Working without a permit

If you perform work without a permit you have unlimited liability forever. It's called intent. With a permit, you still have liability, but your insurance will cover it and there is a statue of limitations on the time.

 

[petersonra]

Re: Working without a permit

I find it ironic that the claim has shifted to permitting being a consumer protection issue.

Claiming the permitting system has little to do with revenue is like claiming our current traffic enforcement system has nothing to do with revenue generation.

Lets do a little thought experiment. Say we had a disconenct between the permitting system and the RE tax system so that permits were not accessable to the tax assessors and could not be used to help raise RE taxes on a property. Does anyone believe for a minute that local government would not be less interested in the permitting system?

Or if traffic tickets had non-monetary penalities associated with them. Does anyone seriously believe the number of traffic tickets issued would not drop precipitously?

 

[chelectrical]

Re: Working without a permit

I am constantly asked to do unpermitted work by GCs and homeowners. It usually involves small jobs like bathroom remodels but I have been asked to do full kitchen remodels and basement finishes and small additions as well. I always turn them down and don't turn them in. There is virtually no enforcement in my area and even if they were caught the penalties amount to a slap on the wrist. It does get very frustrating. It is a huge risk for the licensed EC to do unpermitted work. Those of us who try to play by the rules are licensed and get permits pay the price. For the unlicensed and uninsured (even undocumented) electrician? there is really no liability. When one of their train wrecks starts a fire they are nowhere to be found and the homeowners ins. pays the damages. There is no paper trail and even if they were caught the HO or insurance company would not prosecute since you can't get blood out of a rock.

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Working without a permit

Originally posted:
Curious about something.Does a homeowner have to permit an inspector on there property ?



In the State of N. Carolina,
Article 80 of the NFPA 70 doesn't have to be in affect.

Furthermore,does not deny this Code Inforcement Official,the right of performing his duties.

You can demand or deny this Official, the right to Inspect, but it will not keep him from performing his duties on your property, of his jurisdiction.

In the State of N.Carolina,this Inspector can act promptly to fill gap by enacting Article 4A of GS.Chapter 15,which provides the following..
*The*
*Administratrative Search and Inspection Warrant.

15-27.2-Warrants to conduct inspections authorized by law.(*the 24hour time frame warrant,valid for 24 hrs.)and must be served between the hours of 8:00AM and 8:00PM and must be returned in 48hrs.

*However,if this warrant was procured to a "investigation" the warrant may be executed @ any hour..


*So for those of you living in the Tar-Heel State -->*No Escape* Article 80, has no bearing factor.

This can be found in the "Green Book, part of *Standard Law And Administration Training,for the Inspectors(*Code Inforcement Officials) State of N. Carolina.

Edited for typo..

[ September 04, 2005, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Working without a permit

Originally posted by petersonra:
I find it ironic that the claim has shifted to permitting being a consumer protection issue.

Well that is odd as the people in charge of Licensing in Connecticut for example is the The State board of consumer protection.

Originally posted by petersonra:
Claiming the permitting system has little to do with revenue is like claiming our current traffic enforcement system has nothing to do with revenue generation.

Both of these issues may have become a revenue generator but you will not convince me that either issue started out for that purpose. Or that the primary purpose of either of these is to squeeze money from us.

Trying to claim that enforcement of building and wiring codes do not protect the taxpayers is ridiculous.


Lets say that one of purposes of the inspection is to raise your taxes.

So what?

'They' did not raise your taxes, you did by adding to your home value. This is something to be considered when deciding if you have the funds for this upgrade.

I don't like paying taxes but it is part of life and I have no sympathy for those that try to avoid paying their share.

IMO, anyone that avoids a permit so they can cheat on their tax burden is a dead beat that deserves to get caught.

 

[jeff43222]

Re: Working without a permit

Originally posted by petersonra:

Claiming the permitting system has little to do with revenue is like claiming our current traffic enforcement system has nothing to do with revenue generation.

Whenever the government collects money for anything, it has something to do with revenue generation. I just renewed my driver's license for four more years. I had to pay a fee. I'm not exactly sure where all the money goes, but I'm glad drivers have to be licensed. Or should we just scrap that whole system and let people drive without any kind of training or examination? Let's get rid of license plates on vehicles, too. My neighbor had to pay a fortune in fines, fees and costs when he got busted for DWI. The DWI laws are probably just another money-making scam, too. After all, he didn't get into an accident. Yeah, let's scrap the DWI laws while we're at it. It's no big deal if more people get killed by drunk drivers, right?

Lets do a little thought experiment. Say we had a disconenct between the permitting system and the RE tax system so that permits were not accessable to the tax assessors and could not be used to help raise RE taxes on a property. Does anyone believe for a minute that local government would not be less interested in the permitting system?

First of all, you're assuming there is a connection. Most of the time when I pull permits, the form doesn't ask for a valuation of the job, only how many circuits need to be inspected. Do you really think someone is poring over all the permits that are pulled and deciding to jack up someone's taxes because I put a few receptacles in his garage?

Second, inspections are not always done at the local level. In my state, electrical inspections are performed by the state unless a local jurisdiction gets approval to do its own inspections. The state doesn't levy real estate taxes; that's done at the local level. I imagine that being able to generate revenue is one reason a local government might want to do its own inspections, but I also imagine it might have to do with enforcing local ordinances that go above and beyond what the state requires. The city-inspected places where I work do have stricter requirements, particularly on panel/service upgrades. Either way, it's been my experience that the inspectors I've dealt with do a good job enforcing the code, and their attitude is that safety is paramount.

Or if traffic tickets had non-monetary penalities associated with them. Does anyone seriously believe the number of traffic tickets issued would not drop precipitously?

If it were primarily about money, then I think they'd have fines for electrical violations. That's not how they do things around here. When violations are found, they are ordered to be fixed. If it winds up requiring extra inspections, extra fees get tacked on. I've never had to pay for additional inspections. The few times I've been tagged were completely legitimate (oversights on my part), and I fixed the problems immediately without any fuss.

Seems to me they could be making a fortune off inspections and permits if that were the primary goal. I did a panel upgrade under state jurisdiction last month where the permit fee was $25. I bet that barely covers the state's expense to send out an inspector.

[ September 04, 2005, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]