Working without a permit

[jimwalker]

Re: Working without a permit

"Originally posted by petersonra:
The primary reason for the permitting system is so that the local government agencies will know what building and remodeling is going on so they can raise your taxes afterwards."

Primary no but darn sure will earn you a visit by the tax man.I been there ,read book,seen movie,enen got the t shirt.

Got turned in my a disgruntled neighbor for adding a small 16x60 foot sunroom.Inspector was nice about the whole thing.Asked us to just go pull a permit then call him and he would sign it off.And that he did.Few weeks later here comes mister tax man.

 

[jeff43222]

Re: Working without a permit

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Got turned in my a disgruntled neighbor for adding a small 16x60 foot sunroom.Inspector was nice about the whole thing.Asked us to just go pull a permit then call him and he would sign it off.And that he did.Few weeks later here comes mister tax man.

Well, unless they change the tax system to something that doesn't take the value of the property into account when assessing taxes, you shouldn't be surprised if the tax man is interested in your new sunroom.

You also have an interesting definition of "small." Your 16x60 sunroom, at 960 sq. ft., is bigger than my whole house (815 sq. ft.).

 

[goldstar]

Re: Working without a permit

Wow !! I didn't expect this thread to catch fire but I apparently hit a nerve.

If you perform work without a permit you have unlimited liability forever. It's called intent. With a permit, you still have liability, but your insurance will cover it and there is a statue of limitations on the time.

As far as I'm concerned, this is the most correct answer. I understand both sides of the issue. If townships have an alterior motive whereby they raise taxes if you put an addition onto your house then there will always be someone trying to beat the system. However, for us in the electrical trade, we need the quasi-protection of third party verification so that our insurances will cover us in the event of an accident or fire caused by an electrical fault.

 

[petersonra]

Re: Working without a permit

I am curious as to how you think having a government paid inspector look over your work gives you any release of liability at all? You are just as liable as if there was no inspection at all. And just as likely to be sued if something goes wrong.

And since, generally speaking, governments and their inspectors cannot be sued for poor inspection services, you can't collect from them anyway.

maybe in your city the tax man does not scrutinze permits, but they certainly do here, and if you get a permit to do anything significant, it results in an increased assessment. even repairs often result in an increased assessment, since the tax people figure that part of the building is worth more since it is newer.

in fact, one of the township assesors around here even lists building permits on his web site. you think he goes to the trouble to get them just as a public service?

<added>
By the way, a few years ago I was stupid enough to pay the 50 cent permit fee to put up a fence. you can imagine what happened to my tax assessment the next year.

[ September 04, 2005, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: petersonra ]

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Working without a permit

"By the way, a few years ago I was stupid enough to pay the 50 cent permit fee to put up a fence. you can imagine what happened to my tax assessment the next year."

True but had you got caught they would have quadrupled the permit fee.Could you afford to risk that

[ September 04, 2005, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Re: Working without a permit

Originally posted by petersonra:
I am curious as to how you think having a government paid inspector look over your work gives you any release of liability at all? You are just as liable as if there was no inspection at all. And just as likely to be sued if something goes wrong.

I don't think any is suggesting you are released from liability for defective work. If your work is inspected, you have a record that states your work was not defective. If you perform work w/out an inspection and someone (homeowner or friend) should make a modification, you cannot prove you did not do this. You will be brought up before the license board for your actions. Your insurance company might claim you committed fraud and they don't have to cover you.

It's just not worth it!

 

[petersonra]

Re: Working without a permit

It is a total myth that government inspection does anything to protect you from legal liability for your work. Nor does it provide any kind of proof whatsoever that you actually performed the work correctly, nor is there any record kept of the extent of your work. Read the laws that put these things in place and you will understand that there is NO protection for you whatsoever from this inspection.

You insurance company probably would prefer you follow the rules, as it looks bad if you don't, regardless of the quality of your work.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Re: Working without a permit

Originally posted by petersonra:
It is a total myth that government inspection does anything to protect you from legal liability for your work. Nor does it provide any kind of proof whatsoever that you actually performed the work correctly, nor is there any record kept of the extent of your work. Read the laws that put these things in place and you will understand that there is NO protection for you whatsoever from this inspection.

You insurance company probably would prefer you follow the rules, as it looks bad if you don't, regardless of the quality of your work.

It sounds like you are advocating working w/out a permit. Is that what you are arguing? Or do you just like to debate?

 

[iwire]

Re: Working without a permit

Originally posted by petersonra:
It is a total myth that government inspection does anything to protect you from legal liability for your work.

Something we agree on.

I am responsible for the work I do. It should not be any other way.

The inspection process protects the consumer from shoddy work.

The average electrical customer has no idea what is right or what is wrong. If they higher a fly by nighter without inspections they could very well end up with 12/2 feeding the range. They would never know that is wrong unless it burns.

No I don't think electrical inspections catch every violation, that is imposable.

But oversight always provides better results no matter what profession we speak of.

Would you be as comfortable eating food without USDA oversight? Or without health dept inspections of restaurants?

[ September 05, 2005, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Re: Working without a permit

Originally posted by petersonra:
It is a total myth that government inspection does anything to protect you from legal liability for your work.

Can you point out who said the inspection indemnifies you from your work?

 

[iwire]

Re: Working without a permit

Here is an interesting story about an Molasses flood here in Boston ended up changing laws so that engineers and architects had to stamp and sign the prints.

Great molasses flood

I have read more detailed reports about this and the short version is this.

The engineer designed a safe tank, the contractors used thiner steel and fewer rivets than the design called for.

Result, dead people, lost property.

Had their been inspection oversight that most likely would not have happened.

Yes it still can happen as evidenced by the walkway collapse at a hotel not all that long ago.

However IMO these types of 'field modification' accidents would be much more common without inspection oversight.

 

[petersonra]

Re: Working without a permit

Originally posted by hardworkingstiff:

Originally posted by petersonra:

It sounds like you are advocating working w/out a permit. Is that what you are arguing? Or do you just like to debate?

I do not advocate breaking the law. I have opined from time to time on reasons why the current system actually encourages people to do so.

Nothing wrong with a good debate.

 

[petersonra]

Re: Working without a permit

Originally posted by hardworkingstiff:

Originally posted by petersonra:
It is a total myth that government inspection does anything to protect you from legal liability for your work.

Can you point out who said the inspection indemnifies you from your work?

Several posters have claimed there is some kind of relief if the work is inspected. One claimed there is a statute of limitations involved (there is not), another stated the inspection provides proof the work was not defective (it does not).

CAUTION: The rest of this is not legal advice and its possible it is not true in every case. if you want the absolute facts, check with your attorney and see what he says.

Others have stated your insurance carrier is not responsible for liability on uninspected work. This is a myth as well. It is grounds to terminate your policy though, but they are still responsible for your work if they insure it.

Its no different than if you fudged your taxes a little bit on a job. Your insurance is still liable even if you did not follow all the rules on a project.

 

[petersonra]

Re: Working without a permit

For those of you who may not believe a tax assessor might use building permit data for raising one's tax assessments, I offer a sample assessment record from the Rockford Twonship assessor's office.

you can't access it via a direct web link, but it is online. I made a pdf file of the record so it can be accessed directly via web link.

check out the very bottom part of the record.

http://home.insightbb.com/~petersonra/Output.pdf

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Re: Working without a permit

Originally posted by jimwalker:


Got turned in my a disgruntled neighbor for adding a small 16x60 foot sunroom.

Uh... "small?"

16 x 60?

Sounds like you bumped out the entire back of a ranch 16'!

960 sq. ft.

 

[petersonra]

Re: Working without a permit

I guess small is in the eyes of the beholder.

16X60 is a good size room in my mind.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Re: Working without a permit

Originally posted by petersonra:
The primary reason for the permitting system is so that the local government agencies will know what building and remodeling is going on so they can raise your taxes afterwards.

It is understandable why people avoid permits, especially in already high tax areas.

This issue about improvements raising property taxes is only being considered from the homeowner's P.O.V.

Adding value to a property does add to the tax bill... however; the municipality, and all of it's taxing "districts" do not see a dime in "additional" tax income and therefore one cannot claim that the purpose of inspections is to generate more revenue for a town. (Beyond the permit fees)

To understand how a tax budget works, you need a pie chart.

The entire pie is the budget. How big a slice of that pie one particular property owner is responsible for depends on that tax jurisdiction's total property value divided by the budget.

So after a property improvement, your property is slightly more valuable and you assume a larger piece of pie, but in relation to the rest of the total real estate wealth within that community, the rest of the community is paying LESS.

But the taxing authority isn't any richer because of your improvement. (Unless they actually raised the budget, and therefore the tax rates across the board, for everybody.)

 

[charlie b]

Re: Working without a permit

This is from "Rasselas," by Samuel Johnson, written in 1759.

"This at least," said Imlac, "is the present reward of virtuous conduct, that no unlucky consequence can oblige us to repent it."

And so I would paraphrase thusly:

This at least is the present reward of following all the rules (e.g., with regard to permits, code compliance, good workmanship, and inspections): Today we know that tomorrow will bring no regrets.