Workmanlike installation

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I was working for a friend way back in the 70's who was about this most picky person when it came to running pipe or romex, it had to be straight and run at right angles, no box could lean in or out, left or right, covers and screws had to be straight, you name it, talk about adding to a job, Even his hair didn't have one strand out of place, think he used glue:roll:

But you know what, he bid very high, but he never got out bid, people would call us and just tell us to go do the job, never asking how much. we were working in the late 7o's when everyone else was shut down.
 
The customers always want quality at a cheap price. I will gladly give them the very best as long as money is no object. Seldom find customers that don't care about price.
They get what they pay for or should.

Actually did a house for a contractor that wanted and got perfection. Romex never had so much as 1 twist in it and ran straight as an arrow. Each electrician was assigned a carpenter and we were not allowed to cut wood. If a can was 1/16 of inch out of desired location and they caught it you move it. House took 2 years and tons of money. Personally i think they were crazy but i was paid by the hour and they wanted me to stay. Some were not allowed on the job.
 
LarryFine said:
Added: Neat work doesn't take any longer than sloppy work, as far as I'm concerned.
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Maybe, but when I have to come in behind hack work, it certainly ends up costing someone more $$$$.

Not that I am conplaining, I make bank fixing others crappy, messy, work.

Thanks to all the hacks, they're on my Xmas card list. (not that there are ANY here)
 
LarryFine said:
Neat work doesn't take any longer than sloppy work, as far as I'm concerned.
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How do you figure? It doesn't take an extra 5 seconds to pick up a level and put it to your boxes or pipes? It doesn't take an extra try or two to make sure the wire is lined up before stapling? It doesn't take any extra time to unroll the wire from the coil in a flat manner, or if you just pull it out without unrolling it, does it not take extra time to untwist it? One extra second to be sure you're stripping your wires the same exact length?

How about when a knot in the wood forces the nail-on box to shift over? Does it not take longer to pull out the nails and reset it with more resolve to make sure the box stays put?

When drilling holes doesn't it take a few seconds to clean off the shards of wood left hanging on either side of the stud or joist?

How about measuring the distance off the wall on each side of a fluorescent fixture? You could just screw it up there without worrying if it was straight or you could take the 30-60 seconds to measure it out and make sure it is straight.

To say that neat work takes no longer than sloppy work is a little short-sighted if you ask me.
 
Jay, you're right if you leave it sloppy. I'm thinking Larry meant if you have to go back and fix it, it takes less time to do it right the first time. As for trying to define quality, or Neat and Workmanlike, I think we all understand that is subjective. I always pictured the Neat and Workmanlike phrase to mean it would be installed in a manner that exemplified the skill and training of the tradesman and meeting all standards and codes for the method used, or words to that effect...
 
If you want to know how hard it is to define, you should try being an inspector. I've had electricians brag to me about what a great job they thought they did and I was thinking that I would fire anyone that did that kind of work.:roll:
 
cowboyjwc said:
If you want to know how hard it is to define, you should try being an inspector. I've had electricians brag to me about what a great job they thought they did and I was thinking that I would fire anyone that did that kind of work.:roll:
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Did you mean to say wire pullers or electricians?

Ever had the owner/buyer there and have them say "this is a good job isn't"?
 
iwire said:
Define 'quality of work'.


Looking at the exact same job some may feel RMC is the only way to go while another may feel EMT is right and still another may feel cable is right.

If all of the above methods meet the code it should be up to the customer to decide how much they want to spend.
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In the context of the question, bold print has nothing to do with quality of work
has more to do with quality of material
 
jaylectricity said:
How do you figure?

To say that neat work takes no longer than sloppy work is a little short-sighted if you ask me.
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"I'm a fast cook, I guess!" ~ Mr. Tipton in My Cousin Vinny

I meant that, while it might take a few seconds to untiwst NM, stapling it twisted can take as long. Some parts of a job can be done faster, but that often comes with a penalty later.

Making up boxes, for example; when I rough, I strip and hook device wires, as well as bend and place them for trim-out. Trim is much faster, and I don't have to clean the fresh paint.

For another example, sure, roughing a panel can be done faster, but it slows down trim-out. I did this panel as quickly as I believe anyone could have done it sloppily (and no wire-ties):

afterpanel.jpg
 
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Who should determine who is responsible for the neat and workmanlike installation of electrical work? Should it be the contractor, the electrician, the inspector, the apprentice, or just giterdone?
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The electrician is responsible the quality of the work. The EC is responsible for his electrician. The GC is responsible for his EC. The inspector has the least amount of responsibility since "workmanship" is subjective.

On the exact same installation, should what a customer pays determine the neatness and workmanlike installation, or should the exact same job be the same quality, regardless of price.
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Sorry, price matters. Quality takes time. If I am getting paid twice the money I am going to be able to take a lot more time and shoot for perfection.

I'd be lieing...lying....whatever....not telling the truth if I said that my workmanship on a slum was the same as that on a nice building.

If I am adding exposed conduit on a slum, it will be safe and secure and it will take the easiest path.

If I am doing the same job and getting twice the money on a high end building, it will be safe, secure and look a whole lot better, if you can see it at all. I might even upsize it for future consideration. Hell, I might even paint it.
 
There's a difference between doing quality work and workmanship, and outright doing extra work and/or using more and/or different materials.


"Being still and doing nothing are two very different things." ~ Jackie Chan as Mr. Han in the new Karate Kid
 
LarryFine said:
"I'm a fast cook, I guess!" ~ Mr. Tipton in My Cousin Vinny

I meant that, while it might take a few seconds to untiwst NM, stapling it twisted can take as long. Some parts of a job can be done faster, but that often comes with a penalty later.

Making up boxes, for example; when I rough, I strip and hook device wires, as well as bend and place them for trim-out. Trim is much faster, and I don't have to clean the fresh paint.

For another example, sure, roughing a panel can be done faster, but it slows down trim-out. I did this panel as quickly as I believe anyone could have done it sloppily (and no wire-ties):

afterpanel.jpg
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...the neutral for ckt 27 should have gone all the way to the corner to match the rest, LOL. Very neat job, workmanship and craftsmanship at it finest, well done Larry!
 
jusme123 said:
...the neutral for ckt 27 should have gone all the way to the corner to match the rest, LOL. Very neat job, workmanship and craftsmanship at it finest, well done Larry!
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Nice job on the panel.I think we should always do a safe code compliant install, on all of our work.Every job Has differant obstacles we must work around.
I like to do a nice clean install! Not always possiable, on existing work.
When you follow a hack job. I still try to make it look as good as possiable.
The electrician is the 1st line of defence in a workman like install.
The Inspector should also keep a watchful eye,on quality of workmanship.
 
Thank you both! :) A neat panel or other box is also much easier to return to for tracing or troubleshooting or for more work.


I have had an inspector look at a panel and decide he didn't need to see anything else to pass the job, on more than one occasion.

I ticked off my ex-father-in-law years ago. He insisted I mounted a meter base inside a porch, and I told him we'd have tro move it.

He went ahead and cut the siding around it, the inspector looked at the panel, said he didn't need to see more, but move the meter.
 
LarryFine said:
"I'm a fast cook, I guess!" ~ Mr. Tipton in My Cousin Vinny

I meant that, while it might take a few seconds to untiwst NM, stapling it twisted can take as long. Some parts of a job can be done faster, but that often comes with a penalty later.

Making up boxes, for example; when I rough, I strip and hook device wires, as well as bend and place them for trim-out. Trim is much faster, and I don't have to clean the fresh paint.

For another example, sure, roughing a panel can be done faster, but it slows down trim-out. I did this panel as quickly as I believe anyone could have done it sloppily (and no wire-ties):

afterpanel.jpg
Click to expand...

Very nice work.

A few questions????

How did you feed the GFCI at the right of the panel?

No AFCI's?

Any bonding of the two EGC bars?
 
Workmanship is defined in NECA/NEIS 1, Standard for Workmanship in Electrical Installations.
But this document is only referenced in an Informational Note, and its not enforceable unless adopted as a standard.
 
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