would you try and estimate or just do T&M

A

AC\DC

Senior Member
Location
Florence,Oregon,Lane
Occupation
EC
I’m hesitant to do T&M because I want to maximize my earnings. The job I’m bidding on is a large remodel in a condo with concrete walls and ceilings. There’s a chase down the hall, but it stops halfway, leaving no clear way to run circuits into the living room. The kitchen also lacks a chase, and they want me to remove the wall between the kitchen and living room to add an island. This seems to require significant floor saw cutting to route circuits where they’re needed, which makes me uneasy about providing a fixed bid.

They also want the baseboard heaters moved to the ceiling for a cove heat setup, along with some surface-mounted lights installed.

I feel like I should be able to come up with a number, but my estimate lands around $25k, whereas for a straightforward job, it would probably be $8k–$12k.

Would you approach this as T&M?
 
Condo's can be much more complicated than just t&m/flat rate...
Poor gc, poor planning, tradez on top of each other and thats even before the legal part of it..
 
Some years ago, I was asked to price running a generator SER feeder from outside to the utility room in the center of an otherwise-finished basement of a large house. Apparently, the one part of the job their installer couldn't figure out how to do without doing interior damage.

I did figure it out, and gave the customer a price. He said it seemed high, and I said that, if I'm giving a flat price, I have to include problems and difficulties I might run into. He asked me, "If it takes less time, can you reduce the price?" to which I said, "If it takes longer, can I raise it?"

He looked at me for a second, smiled, and shook my hand in agreement. My question to him made him realize what he was asking of me. I priced an impossible job with a reasonable price, did the job with no damage (R and R'ed two speakers and a sconce) and everyone was happy.

So, the moral of the story is name your price and stick to it.
 
I did a kitchen remodel a while back that had concrete walls, ceilings, and floor. Only saw one chase and didn't really like it. I ended up T&M as I had no idea what I would run into. I was right as I found a lot of obstacles that I wasn't aware of. I don't see how anyone could offer a price on a job unless it was straight forward, or maybe had done one like it before. For the record, I learned this the hard way!
 
I would say, if you do have complete information, then you cannot give a fixed price bid.

This can take at least 3 different forms:

1- Give a fixed price bid for “design and exploration”, basically cutting open walls and floor to see what it will take. After this, you can provide a fixed price bid.

2- Provide a fixed price bid for a limited scope of work, and have a long and detailed discussion about al the things that WILL trigger a Change Work Order, and make them to understand that this project will without a doubt, have CWOs.

3- Work it T&M. Not legal for residential in my State, so I revert to the first two options on residential projects. T&M requires a great deal of trust on both parties, and a lot of finesse. For example, what if a cutoff saw breaks down mid project and you must go buy a new one? You wouldn’t charge him for the new saw, you’re already charging x/day for the saw, but who pays for the time to go buy it?

On fixed price jobs there is enough for the inevitable things that come up that are required to run the job, but are perhaps incidental to it, in the eyes of someone who is paying by the hour.


As an aside, before you cut that floor, make sure its not a pre- or post-tensioned slab. 😲👍
 
I just did a condo remodel that had all glass outside walls, concrete ceilings with prior hard lids lowered by using grid ceiling and screwing Sheetrock to it.

I was able to make holes where needed

Mounting for ceiling fans and heavy chandeliers was involved, getting lined out on lighting was challenging

I moved from $85 per standard opening for typical construction, to $135 per for this condo, which was 58% increase.

So I raised every price 58%, across the board. It would have been about $11k and ended up $17k+

I had good access after cutting rock.
I'd say if you have no real access, and have misgivings, your $25k is minimum.

One thing, too, is building access.
I had to park in the back of a basement garage and cart my stuff almost a quarter mile.

Condos take time
 
AC\DC said:
Would you approach this as T&M?
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If you were the owner would you like to have an idea of what the maximum expected amount might be?

With bids before the project, even if you are pretty much known to be the preferred contractor, they just want to have an idea what they are possibly going to put into the project. Is easier to give them a high upfront figure and have it cost less then to give them a really low figure and then try to get more out of them when it actually cost a lot more.
 
If I got an extremely high estimate I probably go look around for another.

If he came and said it’s going to be about xxxx if I estimate it or do t&m and it will probably cost you a lot less.
being honest goes along way


The gc had his own ec and already is trying to get me out. Him and I have had words before. But it’sa job I can put it aside.
Tough call I like the owner
 
It sounds like you're giving a price straight to the customer and not to the GC? Can't tell for sure.

If all is normal, a bid should be higher than T&M because a bid should account for "what-ifs" that likely won't happen.

Like, suppose you bang up a wire and have to replace it. Your bid should have some "oops" room to cover wasted materials and time

But in all likelihood you won't damage anything, so if you charged T&M he won't pay any oops.

If you really want the work, you could approach it like this:

"I put numbers to your project. It's got some unknowns (describe issues), and in order to account for that, I have a price of $$$

I would recommend T&M because some of these issues may not be as big a deal once I get into the work, and that will likely result in a lower final price - but not guaranteed."

.

Just food for thought, though. I had one of those tough to bid jobs when I was doing remodeling. It was a fully concrete earth contact home with domed ceilings. I was racking my brain trying to be fair, but when I put all the numbers on each item I was scared of the total price being too low. So I added 20% to every line, across the board. Still scared of the total being low, so added 20% again. And then a third time.

By then I was comfortable that I would make money, but the total price was almost double where I started. So I started thinking he's gonna freak out, and was looking for ways I could lower the price.

Finally it hit me - I'm going to have so many hours racking my brain on this bid that even if I get the job I'm not going to make money.

I thought, you know what if he doesn't like the price that I need in order for me to make money then he can just have somebody else do it. So I took it to him

He told me I was cheapest of 4 bids he got.
 
Probably not an issue in a residential building but I would be wary of sawing a concrete floor unless I KNEW it wasn't
pre-stressed.
 
Tell them T&M is like renting a car without the extra insurance. You probably don't need it, and most likely everything will be fine. But....
 
James L said:
It sounds like you're giving a price straight to the customer and not to the GC? Can't tell for sure.

If all is normal, a bid should be higher than T&M because a bid should account for "what-ifs" that likely won't happen.

Like, suppose you bang up a wire and have to replace it. Your bid should have some "oops" room to cover wasted materials and time

But in all likelihood you won't damage anything, so if you charged T&M he won't pay any oops.

If you really want the work, you could approach it like this:

"I put numbers to your project. It's got some unknowns (describe issues), and in order to account for that, I have a price of $$$

I would recommend T&M because some of these issues may not be as big a deal once I get into the work, and that will likely result in a lower final price - but not guaranteed."

.

Just food for thought, though. I had one of those tough to bid jobs when I was doing remodeling. It was a fully concrete earth contact home with domed ceilings. I was racking my brain trying to be fair, but when I put all the numbers on each item I was scared of the total price being too low. So I added 20% to every line, across the board. Still scared of the total being low, so added 20% again. And then a third time.

By then I was comfortable that I would make money, but the total price was almost double where I started. So I started thinking he's gonna freak out, and was looking for ways I could lower the price.

Finally it hit me - I'm going to have so many hours racking my brain on this bid that even if I get the job I'm not going to make money.

I thought, you know what if he doesn't like the price that I need in order for me to make money then he can just have somebody else do it. So I took it to him

He told me I was cheapest of 4 bids he got.
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So how did job go?
 
readydave8 said:
So how did job go?
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I made money, but could have made much more.

This was 20 years ago, master bedroom update and bathroom remodel. Mind you, well before prices skyrocketed.

My price was something like $16k at first, ended up almost $29k 🤔

The closest price to me was over $40k

I think everyone else had similar thoughts as I did about raising the price. But it wasn't near as difficult as I had feared
 
Check and see if they used concrete cellular floors. I've done a few condos and apartments in Florida that used this method. Open up a wall and drill into the concrete and have a cell to run conductors through. It would make your remodel much easier than sawing the floor. Otherwise, I agree with the others, this would be T&M until you've done a few and can be confident of your bid.
 
Rick 0920 said:
Check and see if they used concrete cellular floors. I've done a few condos and apartments in Florida that used this method. Open up a wall and drill into the concrete and have a cell to run conductors through. It would make your remodel much easier than sawing the floor. Otherwise, I agree with the others, this would be T&M until you've done a few and can be confident of your bid.
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It’s a 60 year old condo, probably not.
 
Haul up on the e-brake, there friend. Is this for the condo association? If for the tenant, does the tenant have authority to approve removing walls without condo association say-so? What about any other wall work? In many associations, you own to the paint and that's it.
 
For a complex remodel like this, T&M (Time and Materials) might actually work best. The unknowns with concrete cutting, routing circuits, and reconfiguring heat setups make a fixed bid risky. If you prefer more control, consider Concrete Estimating Services to refine your numbers they can help you confidently justify costs and protect your bottom line.
 
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