Hi guys, Ive never seen this before but maybe its normal in other places. We are running a service and installing panels for a pre fab tripple decker, we took a walk into the basement and found dozens of #10/2 home runs and just cant believe there were so many,all of these need to be put in panels along with the other circuits,anyway upon further investigation they seemed to have brought 10/2 to all the g.f.c.is and then branched off to other receptacles with #12.My question is even if we know not to put a 30 amp breaker what about anyone else in the future? It does not seem right, also do the gfi"s need to be rated for #10 wire ?why they ran #10 i dont know!! Thank you all
wrong size wire?
- Thread starter bond
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Re: wrong size wire?
There is nothing wrong with this other than wasted resources if VD was not a problem.
As far as an electrician (notice that I said electrician) putting these conductors on a 30 amp breaker in the future, it will not happen.
Roger
There is nothing wrong with this other than wasted resources if VD was not a problem.
As far as an electrician (notice that I said electrician) putting these conductors on a 30 amp breaker in the future, it will not happen.
Roger
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: wrong size wire?
To add to Rogers post I think you will find that most if not all device terminals (other than 'backstab') are listed for 10 AWG.
To add to Rogers post I think you will find that most if not all device terminals (other than 'backstab') are listed for 10 AWG.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Re: wrong size wire?
I agree with Roger with out a VD issue it's just a waste of money. The NEC is not intended to prevent the "what if " scenario that you've presented. A qualified person shouldn't simply install a 30 amp CB in the future. This seems to trip up quite a few people.
I recently had an inspector tell me that you could not use #12 conductors to the first junction box and then #14 conductors on the rest of the 15 amp circuit. He said that the wire must be the same size from end to end. When I challenged him for a code reference he could not provide one but came up with the exact "what if" scenario that you mentioned in your OP.
I agree with Roger with out a VD issue it's just a waste of money. The NEC is not intended to prevent the "what if " scenario that you've presented. A qualified person shouldn't simply install a 30 amp CB in the future. This seems to trip up quite a few people.
I recently had an inspector tell me that you could not use #12 conductors to the first junction box and then #14 conductors on the rest of the 15 amp circuit. He said that the wire must be the same size from end to end. When I challenged him for a code reference he could not provide one but came up with the exact "what if" scenario that you mentioned in your OP.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: wrong size wire?
I don't know if all device terminals will accept #10. I seem to remember reusing a #10 to feed some kitchen receptacles and having to pigtail #12 for that reason.
I don't know if all device terminals will accept #10. I seem to remember reusing a #10 to feed some kitchen receptacles and having to pigtail #12 for that reason.
B
bthielen
Guest
Re: wrong size wire?
I am one that leans toward good documentation. Even in my own home, when I labeled the circuit breaker panel I included the breaker size in the labeling in order to reduce the chance of the future scenario mentioned. As far as all electricians being qualified and will not replace the circuit breaker with the incorrect size, I believe this is a little presumptuous. While it is unusual to find 10ga wire on household circuits and therefore would probably peak curiousity, I find it hard to believe that one could expect an electrician would open every device box throughout the entire circuit to verify that all the wire is 10ga and suitable for a 30A breaker. Maybe it's our UL procedures training but I personally think the maximum size replacement of the OCPD should be required to be appropriately identified in the service panel.
Bob
I am one that leans toward good documentation. Even in my own home, when I labeled the circuit breaker panel I included the breaker size in the labeling in order to reduce the chance of the future scenario mentioned. As far as all electricians being qualified and will not replace the circuit breaker with the incorrect size, I believe this is a little presumptuous. While it is unusual to find 10ga wire on household circuits and therefore would probably peak curiousity, I find it hard to believe that one could expect an electrician would open every device box throughout the entire circuit to verify that all the wire is 10ga and suitable for a 30A breaker. Maybe it's our UL procedures training but I personally think the maximum size replacement of the OCPD should be required to be appropriately identified in the service panel.
Bob
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: wrong size wire?
) that the receptacles are only rated for 20 amps. In that case, you could not replace the 20 amp breaker with a 30 amp breaker, even if all the wire was #10. Reference: Table 210.21(B)(3).
Isn't this actually an easier situation than that? I would be willing to guess (but not bet ? I'm not that certain
) that the receptacles are only rated for 20 amps. In that case, you could not replace the 20 amp breaker with a 30 amp breaker, even if all the wire was #10. Reference: Table 210.21(B)(3).
B
bthielen
Guest
Re: wrong size wire?
I see your point, Charlie. The scenario I had in mind was too unlikely to be considered.
Bob
I see your point, Charlie. The scenario I had in mind was too unlikely to be considered.
Bob
Re: wrong size wire?
I would hazard a guess that the reason why a breaker accepts (look at the label on the side) a larger wire than would be allowed for the amperage of the breaker, is for this very situation, when the wire size is increased for VD.
This is a common commercial, industrial application, and probably just as common in larger homes.
I think that the idea that we should be required to take into account what someone may do in the future is insane. We can only be held responsible for the work we are currently doing, and that it meets code. There is no way to prevent someone from coming along behind us turning our legal wiring into illegal wireing.
I would hazard a guess that the reason why a breaker accepts (look at the label on the side) a larger wire than would be allowed for the amperage of the breaker, is for this very situation, when the wire size is increased for VD.
This is a common commercial, industrial application, and probably just as common in larger homes.
I think that the idea that we should be required to take into account what someone may do in the future is insane. We can only be held responsible for the work we are currently doing, and that it meets code. There is no way to prevent someone from coming along behind us turning our legal wiring into illegal wireing.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: wrong size wire?
If Bob and Roger might object, that would be enough to scare me off!!!
If Bob and Roger might object, that would be enough to scare me off!!!
Re: wrong size wire?
physis, I agree.
From reasons charlieb and others pointed out, if qualifed folks are involved the 30 amp scenerio isn't likely to happen, however, your idea of marking would be another step in preventing "mr handyman" from installing a 30amp breaker.
I may be overstepping my authority, but in the situation where the same type wiring occurs except its a #14 extending a 15 amp circuit with a #12 homerun, I insist that the circuit be maked
physis, I agree.
From reasons charlieb and others pointed out, if qualifed folks are involved the 30 amp scenerio isn't likely to happen, however, your idea of marking would be another step in preventing "mr handyman" from installing a 30amp breaker.
I may be overstepping my authority, but in the situation where the same type wiring occurs except its a #14 extending a 15 amp circuit with a #12 homerun, I insist that the circuit be maked
Re: wrong size wire?
jb, maybe i'm looking at it as saying to make sure no one does speed, since you built the road this way, i want you to post a speed limit sign.
98% of my calls I can back up by code reference. The other 2% are ones where I feel, if I had to explain my actions to my supervisors or my peers, I would be comfortable.
To date, after 40 years in this business, my hand hasn't been called.
jb, maybe i'm looking at it as saying to make sure no one does speed, since you built the road this way, i want you to post a speed limit sign.
98% of my calls I can back up by code reference. The other 2% are ones where I feel, if I had to explain my actions to my supervisors or my peers, I would be comfortable.
To date, after 40 years in this business, my hand hasn't been called.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: wrong size wire?
:roll:
[ December 30, 2005, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
PLEASE tell me you are not an inspector.
:roll:
[ December 30, 2005, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: wrong size wire?
You would get called if you did it me.Just where do you inspect ?
You would get called if you did it me.Just where do you inspect ?
Re: wrong size wire?
augie, you just said that you would require labeling if #12 wire were used on a 15 amp breaker.
Show me the sign.
Not what you thought the sign should say, or what you thought the sign writers wanted to say. Show me what the sign says. (to spoof our moderator.)
edit to add: you side stepped my question. if you were the one being charged, would you feel comfortable that the enforcer was making up the laws as he/she went along, or would you go to court and fight the ticket?
[ December 30, 2005, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: jbwhite ]
augie, you just said that you would require labeling if #12 wire were used on a 15 amp breaker.
Show me the sign.
Not what you thought the sign should say, or what you thought the sign writers wanted to say. Show me what the sign says. (to spoof our moderator.)
edit to add: you side stepped my question. if you were the one being charged, would you feel comfortable that the enforcer was making up the laws as he/she went along, or would you go to court and fight the ticket?
[ December 30, 2005, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: jbwhite ]
Re: wrong size wire?
(a) jb, perhaps to clarify, not "a #12 on a 15 amp breaker per se, a #12 on a circuit as a home run with #14 brached off of it.
(b)well guys, all i can say is that's my story and i'm sticking to it. not that it justifies my actions to any of you, but its common practice for a number of inspection agencies in the areas that surround mine and acceptable to my supervisor.
again, those who disagree will disagree, but to me, 210.24 pretty well backs up my thinking. If its a 20 amp circuit fitting the requirements, the minimum conductor is 12. If you wish to use a 14 somewhere in that circuit (other than allowed by tap rules etc) then, to me it becomes a 15 amp circuit (perhaps with sections of #12 for voltdrop). Other than as permitted in the code, if its a brach circuit with #14 wire involved, to me its a 15 amp circuit. If the wire at the overcurrent device is larger than a #14, such as used for voltage drop situations,I want it identified as such at the overcurrent protection device to draw attention to the fact that the "undesize" wire is in the circuit.
[ December 30, 2005, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: augie47 ]
(a) jb, perhaps to clarify, not "a #12 on a 15 amp breaker per se, a #12 on a circuit as a home run with #14 brached off of it.
(b)well guys, all i can say is that's my story and i'm sticking to it. not that it justifies my actions to any of you, but its common practice for a number of inspection agencies in the areas that surround mine and acceptable to my supervisor.
again, those who disagree will disagree, but to me, 210.24 pretty well backs up my thinking. If its a 20 amp circuit fitting the requirements, the minimum conductor is 12. If you wish to use a 14 somewhere in that circuit (other than allowed by tap rules etc) then, to me it becomes a 15 amp circuit (perhaps with sections of #12 for voltdrop). Other than as permitted in the code, if its a brach circuit with #14 wire involved, to me its a 15 amp circuit. If the wire at the overcurrent device is larger than a #14, such as used for voltage drop situations,I want it identified as such at the overcurrent protection device to draw attention to the fact that the "undesize" wire is in the circuit.
[ December 30, 2005, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: augie47 ]
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: wrong size wire?
Until there is a change to the "augie electrical code" you would have a tough time getting me to do it because " I want it that way.
[ December 30, 2005, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
Well, you win. There certainly is an I in inspector.
Until there is a change to the "augie electrical code" you would have a tough time getting me to do it because " I want it that way.
[ December 30, 2005, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
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