Wrong to begin with now adding a 12 x 24 metal shed

[allenwayne]

I sold my 5 acres in a divorce settlement and didn`t want to buy again.Here`s the set up.A good friend of mine has 15 acres close by and we struck a deal I couldn`t pass up he has a 2200 sq ft home on the propety and there is a rental 2 br 1 1/2 bath cottage nice deck front and side florida room that was vacant.
He asked me if I wanted to rent it ? $ 500.00 per month all utilities included electric water sewage (septic) and direct tv included.The kitchen needed replaced so he paid for materials and with a few friends on a week end new kitchen.
The panel is on a kitchen wall so I was going to relocate the panel outside to a 100a 3r I had easy job.here`s the kicker.
When original underground was done some braniac did take VD into consideration and used #1 but only ran 3 wires

 

[charlie b]

Re: Wrong to begin with now adding a 12 x 24 metal shed

I agree with your notion of bonding all the ground rods together, and bonding to the shed itself. But I do not understand one aspect: What supplies power to the cottage now? Is it a "sub-panel" from the main house? Also, is there any continuous metal paths (e.g., underground water pipes) between the two buildings? I am refering to 250.32.

Also, you said you are going to "hit the disconnect and 4 wire into the new panel,where I will isolate grounding and grounded conductors." But you still have no EGC path to the main building. So how are you planning to connect the 3 incoming wires to the 4 wires in the panel?

 

[BruceH]

Re: Wrong to begin with now adding a 12 x 24 metal shed

Sounds like you will need to wire this cottage like a service, and bond the neutral and ground. Unless owner wants to pull a new feeder. Otherwise, what are you really accomplishing? An isolated sub won't solve your issue if the feeder is a 3 wire. You will still need to ensure a neutral to ground bond at this building unless a 4 wire feeder is installed, then of course isolation of N-G would be warranted. Isolation of neutral and ground with a 3 wire feeder creates an extremely dangerous condition.

 

[hbiss]

Re: Wrong to begin with now adding a 12 x 24 metal shed

Sounds to me like this is a 3 wire feeder from the main house. In my opinion that would be fine except that you do have telco and cable. 250.32 refers to metallic paths bonded to the grounding system of both structures involved. Though these may not be run directly from main building to the cottage, even if they are run from the street to each structure there is a common ground bond. 250.32 would require a 4 wire feeder with the ground and neutral not bonded in the sub panel.

-Hal

[ September 22, 2005, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: hbiss ]

 

[mvannevel]

Re: Wrong to begin with now adding a 12 x 24 metal shed

I think I follow what you're doing here and it sounds like you've got it right. As long as there are no continuous metallic paths between the home and the rental cottage bonded to the grounding system in both buildings. The 3 wire feeder, while not a good installation in my opinion, is perfectly allowable per 250.32(B)(2). When you install your disconnect on the side of the cottage, you'll do all of your grounding and bonding there and treat the panel inside the shed as a feeder panel. The Telco, cable, and Direct TV, grounds need to be connected to the grounding electrode system per their respective articles in Chapter 8. You could probably eliminate the rods for them (they're most likely only 4 footers anyway) and just split bolt the grounds to the #6 you're going to run to them.

 

[hbiss]

Re: Wrong to begin with now adding a 12 x 24 metal shed

mvannevel, the TELCO and CATV drops are the continuous metallic paths between the two structures.

-Hal

 

[allenwayne]

Re: Wrong to begin with now adding a 12 x 24 metal shed

There is 3 wires dirrect burried for 250 ft from main house panel to rental.Right now the rental panel is a M.L.O. panel.So pulling a 4th wire is out the door.
My intentiom is to bring the 3 wires into an external disc.then nipple in about 10 ins. to another M.L.O. panel,bring all circuits into this panel via a j box since all will be to short to make it,split grnds. and neutrals at the new panel which will be fed from disc. 2 hots 1 neutral and a ground.
At the disc. run a ground wire to a new ground rod then with a seperate #6 hit the telco,cable and satellite ground rods just to make them part of the system.The house is built on block supports so it is easy to get from point a to b to c .....
I just can`t help but think I am missing something

 

[allenwayne]

Re: Wrong to begin with now adding a 12 x 24 metal shed

Almost forgot the telco and cable and sat. are all runs from the respective companies the ony thing that connects main building to this structure are 3 dirrect buried wires.

 

[roger]

Re: Wrong to begin with now adding a 12 x 24 metal shed

Read 250.32(A) & (B), 250.50, 250.52 taking special note of 250.52(A)(1) if applicable, 250.53, 250.56, and 250.104, this should have you covered

Roger

 

[apauling]

Re: Wrong to begin with now adding a 12 x 24 metal shed

It doesn't sound like you are getting a permit, nor is there a meter on the rental, and you are not going to add a 4th wire. Why touch the panel; leave it where it is. If the upgrade isn't necessary, you are doing little to add to the overall safety except having a disconnect on the exterior of the metal shed. If the access to the panel is diectly accessible upon entering the shed, it is hardly less code compliant leaving it unchanged (but bonding the GEC's), than not installing the 4th wire with the common paths, which also possibly include the septic and water, as well as the phone, TV.

from what I've seen of some of these metal sheds, the panel supports may be suspect.

doing the work without permit puts you directly in the path of liability without any insurance back-up, so the least amount of adaption of the existing system, on balance, is the safer path.

IMHO

paul

 

[butch]

Re: Wrong to begin with now adding a 12 x 24 metal shed

What about two different ground potentials?If grd rods are installed at the sub panel.

 

[roger]

Re: Wrong to begin with now adding a 12 x 24 metal shed

The earth connections would not pose any problems unless the system had a bad neutral conductor connection to the source, and at this distance and low voltage, and with no parallel paths, there would not be any more danger than loosing a neutral connection at the main with no other building downstream.

In either case, if there are line to neutral loads on, there will be dangerous voltages at gradients around the rods (especially if they are the sole GE's)

Roger

[ September 23, 2005, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: roger ]

 

[allenwayne]

Re: Wrong to begin with now adding a 12 x 24 metal shed

SSSSSSSSHHHHHHHH permit well I won`t comment on that for lagal aspects.Why relocate the panel ouside well I have an upper cabinet sitting waiting to go in the same area.The shed is on it`s way by truck All I want to do is what I think is the best resolution to this situation.Yes there are multiple ground points but the telco,cable and sat. company installed these to do thier install.Being that these systems are connected to the electrical system in a manner of speaking I figured that they should be bonded to the disc.I know the original install should have been a 4 wire system,but what is there is what is there.
If this was just a customer from a phone call it would be a horse of another color.I posted this thread because I value the opinions of the guys here.I know the situation should be remedied with a 4th wire but that`s not happening.I just wanted some friendly opinions from other electricians and what is the best case senario.I intend to install an exterior disc. feed a new panel bond the metal shed,bond the ground rods from the telco,cable and sat people to the panel.As far as a meter it`s 100`s of feet away how else could Irent with utilities included

 

[roger]

Re: Wrong to begin with now adding a 12 x 24 metal shed

Okay since you aren't licensed let me offer this.

Read 250.32(A) & (B), 250.50, 250.52 taking special note of 250.52(A)(1) if applicable, 250.53, 250.56, and 250.104, this should have you covered

You do have a code book don't you?

Roger

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Wrong to begin with now adding a 12 x 24 metal shed

Some how i see this as 1 dish and your just a tap at $5 per month.If so that is the problem area as you now have a shared ground on that system.Do you have a seprate dish on your building ? If not there is a hazard.Hope things work out for you and you still have the kids.

 

[allenwayne]

Re: Wrong to begin with now adding a 12 x 24 metal shed

yes Roger I still have the code book you once said I didn`t have I have this install and just wanted some input from other qualified sparkys.Not lawyers just plain ole electricians.What I proposed sounded solid ground for me to stand on.
Only a 3 wire feed to a seperate structure,So install an exterior disc. nipple into panel bring existing circuits into new panel sink a ground rod there .isolate neutrals after the P.O.E. bond metal shed to system since it will have power and bond telco,cable etc.ground rods to panels isolated ground.If i wanted to have a debate as to is this permitted or are you licensed(BTW have held a block card for 30 years)
When i first found this site I thought it was great a place for electricians to come to and get answers and ask questions but recently some here have turned it into a law debate forum.
Jim you know where I work.you`ve been there it`s no hack shack.Some here No names mentioned you know who you are have commited to bashing me every chance they have.I`m a big boy I can handle it bet you can`t.
No wonder why we see new members join in and get out of dodge when they ask a simple question and get bashed by people like you know who I`m talking about
To you I say get a life to the others that gave solid input I say thank you.Maybe the moderators will revoke my memborship because of what I stated if that is the way it goes down well so be it.But at least I spoke the truth

 

[roger]

Re: Wrong to begin with now adding a 12 x 24 metal shed

Oh lighten up Allen, your answer is in the articles I gave you in the code book you say you have. If those articles weren't a good enough answer to your question then what would be?

Do you want a step by step picture book?

BTW, I didn't bring up the permit issue so you're directing your justification argument to the wrong person, but since you are directing it towards me let me ask, what makes you any different than a DIYer not getting a permit and coming here with the same questions?

This cottage is not your property, and even if it were, a rental property is supposed to have a licensed EC perform any electrical work, this is in the FL laws. Sorry if that doesn't sit well with you.

Roger

 

[normbac]

Re: Wrong to begin with now adding a 12 x 24 metal shed

your choices are not many, you have to do it as you said. you said you feel like your missing something, that is normal if you like to do things the right way. But it is what it is and the book tells you if you come across this scenario you can ground the neutral.
If you can do without 240 take the one hot and change it to the egc

 

[butch]

Re: Wrong to begin with now adding a 12 x 24 metal shed

Is there any reason why you couldnt use a110volt sub panel, and allow for a seperate grounding and seperate neutral conductor???

 

[BruceH]

Re: Wrong to begin with now adding a 12 x 24 metal shed

Code issue and legalities aside, other than driving a few ground rods you are not making the building any safer than it was. Ensure there will be a neutral to ground bond at the disconnect and you will be fine. I don't know how many sub-panels I've seen in separate buildings or in the same building with a three wire feeder and bonded, nobody ever died. If you can pull a 4 wire feeder, pull it, if not bond, ground, and be done with it. Enough with the drama.