Xfmr Reverse Connected

[mjobee]

When a typical 150 kVA, 480V, 3PH delta to 208Y/120V, 3PH dry type xfmr is reverse connected with a 208V, 3PH, 3W primary, is there any negative impact on the xfmr because it is connected with a 3PH, 3W feed in lieu of a 3PH, 4W feed. Are there any engineering or NEC principles violated. Any thoughts.


Michael

 

[boater bill]

Don't do it.

The transformer manufacturers design input impedence to limit the initial magnetizing current of the transformer. If it is wired backwards as a step-up, you will trip breakers most of the time the power is applied, not all of the time. I am sure someone else can explain why it doesn't trip every time, but my experience is... Don't do it.

 

[rattus]

Don't do it!

Don't do it!

When a typical 150 kVA, 480V, 3PH delta to 208Y/120V, 3PH dry type xfmr is reverse connected with a 208V, 3PH, 3W primary, is there any negative impact on the xfmr because it is connected with a 3PH, 3W feed in lieu of a 3PH, 4W feed. Are there any engineering or NEC principles violated. Any thoughts.


Michael

Without a neutral on the primary, the wye phase voltages, and the delta phase voltages will vary wildly with unbalanced loads. Sort of like an open neutral on a 120/240V service.

 

[rattus]

Magnetizing current:

Magnetizing current:

Don't do it.

The transformer manufacturers design input impedence to limit the initial magnetizing current of the transformer. If it is wired backwards as a step-up, you will trip breakers most of the time the power is applied, not all of the time. I am sure someone else can explain why it doesn't trip every time, but my experience is... Don't do it.

In a 2:1 stepdown xfrmr, the magnetizing inductance of the secondary will be 1/4 that of the primary inductance, Lp. But it needs to be Lp/2. The upshot is that the magnetizing current is twice what it should be, and this saturates the core which causes a large increase in magetizing current. The breaker will trip unless the xfrmr is designed to be reversible.

 

[jim dungar]

Without a neutral on the primary, the wye phase voltages, and the delta phase voltages will vary wildly with unbalanced loads. Sort of like an open neutral on a 120/240V service.

Many transformers manufacturers (including Square D, Hammond, and ACME) have cautions, but not prohibitions, about reverse connecting transformers. While high inrush current is one concern, voltage stability on the delta is not. In fact, the strongest warnings I have seen advise against any connection (including ground) to the X0 terminal.

 

[winnie]

In a 2:1 stepdown xfrmr, the magnetizing inductance of the secondary will be 1/4 that of the primary inductance, Lp. But it needs to be Lp/2.

I don't get this. The lower voltage coil has half as many turns, and since inductance scales as N^2, the inductance on the low voltage side is 1/4 that of the high voltage side. You note this above. The applied voltage is half, so with 1/4 the inductance, the magnetizing current is doubled. But since the number of turns is half, the net ampere turns remains the same and core saturation remains the same.

-Jon

 

[rattus]

Uh-oh!

Uh-oh!

I don't get this. The lower voltage coil has half as many turns, and since inductance scales as N^2, the inductance on the low voltage side is 1/4 that of the high voltage side. You note this above. The applied voltage is half, so with 1/4 the inductance, the magnetizing current is doubled. But since the number of turns is half, the net ampere turns remains the same and core saturation remains the same.

-Jon

Winnie, yer right! Then, why can't we reverse feed the tranformer without tripping breakers?

 

[coulter]

Winnie, yer right! Then, why can't we reverse feed the tranformer without tripping breakers?

First my disclaimer - I'm way out of my expertise here.

The last paper I read was from GE - Can't find the number but I'm still looking.

My translation was:
1. The LV winding is generally next to the core, so the turns are shorter.
2. The LV winding wire size is larger (ratio of Lv current to Hv current)
3. And, of course, the LV winding has less turns
4. For worse case inrush, the core saturates, inductance goes to zero, leaving only the resistance to limit the current during the inrush half-cycle peaks.
5. The resistance of the Lv coils is significantly less (porportionally) than the Hv side. The Lv side is short length per turn, less turns, fatter wire

So, backfeed inrush (fed from the Lv side) is significantly higher than forward feed

Then again, could be my disclaimer applies.

carl

 

[coulter]

Winnie, yer right! Then, why can't we reverse feed the tranformer without tripping breakers?

I think you can. Size the CB right up to the max allowed. Fatten the primary wire to fit. The few times I have done this, have not been a problem.

carl

 

[winnie]

Rattus,

I think that coulter must be on to something here; I hope he can find that paper

My point about inductance was a steady state issue, and for what it is worth I've successfully backfed a couple of smallish (50KVA or so) transformers with _undersized_ (relative to the rating of the xformer, not the load) breakers, without any problems of tripping on inrush.

Another factor: transformers usually only have taps on their _primary_ coil in order to allow adjustment for proper core saturation. When a transformer is reverse fed you don't have any taps, and thus if the supply voltage is just a bit high, you will oversaturate the core, and get excess heating on a continuous basis, as well as greater inrush on startup

-Jon

 

[rattus]

Half Right:

Half Right:

Many transformers manufacturers (including Square D, Hammond, and ACME) have cautions, but not prohibitions, about reverse connecting transformers. While high inrush current is one concern, voltage stability on the delta is not. In fact, the strongest warnings I have seen advise against any connection (including ground) to the X0 terminal.

Jim, you are right if the secondary is delta. However, with a 3-wire wye primary and a wye secondary, the secondary voltages are very sensitive to load variations.

This one kinda hurts my head!

 

[jim dungar]

Jim, you are right if the secondary is delta. However, with a 3-wire wye primary and a wye secondary, the secondary voltages are very sensitive to load variations.

The original question was about reverse connecting a delta-wye unit.
Have you ever seen a wye - wye transformer with a HV of 600V or less?

 

[rattus]

The original question was about reverse connecting a delta-wye unit.
Have you ever seen a wye - wye transformer with a HV of 600V or less?

Nope. My post was merely a theoretical exercise to understand why the different configurations behave differently.

 

[jtester]

Jim, you are right if the secondary is delta. However, with a 3-wire wye primary and a wye secondary, the secondary voltages are very sensitive to load variations.

This one kinda hurts my head!

If you truely have a 3 wire wye primary, you probably have serious problems. Without a grounded neutral wire to anchor the high side neutral connection, you'll likely have wildly varying voltages. An ungrounded wye/grounded wye is generally not recommended.

Jim T

 

[rattus]

If you truely have a 3 wire wye primary, you probably have serious problems. Without a grounded neutral wire to anchor the high side neutral connection, you'll likely have wildly varying voltages. An ungrounded wye/grounded wye is generally not recommended.

Jim T

I might add that the line-line voltages are stable, but the wye phase voltages vary which could cause excessive magnetizing currents and excessive iron losses.