Yeah, your prices are too cheap

[ivsenroute]

In the spirit of business discussion for the electrical profession I would like to revisit the lowballer problem that is making an industry out of our profession rather than us making a profession out of our industry.

No secret that I "wear 2 hats" as an AHJ as an an electrician. I try to keep a good rapport with the other electricians when I work as an AHJ because it helps with communication during stressful times when I have to be firm.

I recently had a phone conversation with an electrician who I caught working without a permit on a commercial job. I stopped by and told him to get a permit. It was the end of the day and he said he would get one in the AM to which I was fine with. It ended up that he was there for 2 full weeks and filled out a permit for $2k in work. I thought that this was BS and no one does work for 2 weeks providing material and labor for that little money.

Anyway, he never called for an inspection and I called him up on the phone after I did not see his van on the job for 1 week. He told me he was not done yet and I let him know he needs to be honest when he fills out a permit application when it comes to pricing. I did not fine him for initially working without a permit. We started talking shop and I come to find out that he says he is being pressured by his other electrician friends because he only charges $1,100. for a 200A service upgrade. When I heard this I confirmed that his price was way too low and it would be best for him and the profession if he would raise his prices to be more competitive with that of his piers (including me).

His basic response was that he has 5 kids and his prices allow him to feed his family and I had a hard time arguing with that. He gets more work because of his prices but just does not understand that he is working a lot harder for his money than he has to.

If he does not lowball then there is someone else right behind him who will.

Why can't we stick together like plumbers who are getting more money than we are?

 

[bphgravity]

I wouldn't worry too much about anyone else. Charge what you need to charge and who cares if it is too low or too high as compared to someone else.

Work is work in these economical times.

 

[triplstep]

His basic response was that he has 5 kids and his prices allow him to feed his family and I had a hard time arguing with that. He gets more work because of his prices but just does not understand that he is working a lot harder for his money than he has to.

How do you like his work? Does it pass not only inspection, but your standards? Why don't you throw this guy some work for some of the bigger coin that you think he could be making?

Why can't we stick together like plumbers who are getting more money than we are?

I think it's only a matter of time that plumber's rates are going to look much like ours. Many a plumbing contractor is dying on the vine.

 

[nolabama]

1100 is cheap for a 200 amp service but like all things we are not on a level playing field - not everyone eats ramen noodles and not everyone eats steaks - i hate ramens - i dont want to be the most expensive or the least either - and 2k for two weeks has got to kill ya though - my thought on that is this - we are not like cargill and adm and able to price fix our work and you have customers that no matter what are gonna look for cheaper - case in point GC's that hire illiegals -and also there is always a jw looking to break out on his own thats gonna learn the hard way about cheap customers

 

[macmikeman]

I personally have issues with the practice of allowing those who are in the electrical business from performing inspection work on other electrical contractors jobs, whether they are in the same location of work or not. And likewise in my opinion, electrical inspectors are there to see to it that the code is enforced, not whether the owner is getting a good deal, or if the electrical contractor is charging enough money or not. This is just my own little opinion. The two should be separate.

 

[Rockyd]

in my opinion, electrical inspectors are there to see to it that the code is enforced, not whether the owner is getting a good deal, or if the electrical contractor is charging enough money or not. This is just my own little opinion. The two should be separate.

I think the guy was lucky that the inspector didn't take him to task (city) Two weeks to do a service? Common, I'm from Alaska, I can get parts quicker than that in the bush!

Further more, for doing it dirt cheap, he lowers the industry standard as a profession. Would you trust your car to a mechanic that charges $7.00 an hour? No, of course not! Same with our game. Service change to a 200A is worth at least $2000 anywhere in America (or at least for a good job)

I don't mind that the guy has a family to feed, but don't kill mine by doing it for free!

 

[ivsenroute]

I personally have issues with the practice of allowing those who are in the electrical business from performing inspection work on other electrical contractors jobs, whether they are in the same location of work or not. And likewise in my opinion, electrical inspectors are there to see to it that the code is enforced, not whether the owner is getting a good deal, or if the electrical contractor is charging enough money or not. This is just my own little opinion. The two should be separate.

The 2 are separate but we need to know what the job is costing due to the permit fee structure.

As far as me wearing 2 hats, there is not enough electrical inspections available in the 3 municipalities that I cover as one of the inspectors so I have to earn a living just like everyone else.

I have not inspected his work yet so I don't know what his quality leve is yet. In addition I found out that he is not licensed in the 2 larger cities in our area that require testing to get a license (neither journeyman or master) but he has been caught working in these towns. All other muni's just require proof of insurance and a fee to get your license. No state license here.

 

[hillbilly1]

If you think $1100 is cheap, I had another contractor that was going to put a 200 amp overhead service on a doublewide for $150! I told the owner that I couldn't even get the parts for that. I don't know if he got the other guy back to do it for that or not, I was quite a bit higher than that, so the owner never called back.

 

[masterinbama]

Don't know if it's tough times or this guy is just always hungry. I priced a 100amp fused to 100amp breaker panel change the other day. The meter , mast, and outdoor disconnect had already been done due to a storm a few years ago. My work entailed turning off the outdoor main tearing out the panel and replacing with new. no AFCI's or GFCI's about 3 hours for me max. $300.00 material $375.00 labor $30.00 permit + profit and overhead. I was right at $900.00 this guy beat me by more than $250.00 and he even threw in a dedicated circuit for a GFCI on he patio 45' away. I wasn't wanting steak on this one but a good french dip and a beer from the local bar & grill was figured in while waiting on the inspector.

 

[petersonra]

IMO, it is an extreme breach of ethics for a government agent (such as an electrical inspector) to be giving anyone advice on how much to charge.

 

[growler]

I recently had a phone conversation with an electrician who I caught working without a permit on a commercial job. I stopped by and told him to get a permit. It was the end of the day and he said he would get one in the AM to which I was fine with. It ended up that he was there for 2 full weeks and filled out a permit for $2k in work. I thought that this was BS and no one does work for 2 weeks providing material and labor for that little money.

He may not have been planning on working 2 weeks before he was forced to get a permit. People have been known to cut a few corners when doing un-permitted work. The amount of work can really change when you have to get an inspection ( for some people that is ).

I was doing a job a few years back and refused to do the work without a permit so this forced the GC to permit and made the HVAC contractor really mad because he sent his crew back to completely redo the duct work. He tried to say it was up to code before but he had two guys on the job for most of the day so I kind of doubt it.

 

[satcom]

He may not have been planning on working 2 weeks before he was forced to get a permit. People have been known to cut a few corners when doing un-permitted work. The amount of work can really change when you have to get an inspection ( for some people that is ).

I was doing a job a few years back and refused to do the work without a permit so this forced the GC to permit and made the HVAC contractor really mad because he sent his crew back to completely redo the duct work. He tried to say it was up to code before but he had two guys on the job for most of the day so I kind of doubt it.

It always screws things up when someone pulls a permit, you have to connect all the ground wires, and even worse you can't put 4 circuits on one breaker, and how crazy to use 12G wire on 20A circuits, when 14G is cheaper, and really waste time, securing cables, and those crazy inspectors, want you to follow the code, heck who needs all that big brother stuff, If I want to fry some young family, that's my business.

 

[iwire]

we need to know what the job is costing due to the permit fee structure.

I understand, it is the same here in most towns.:smile:

However that has nothing to do with this

I confirmed that his price was way too low and it would be best for him and the profession if he would raise his prices to be more competitive with that of his piers (including me).

IMO when you are on the phone as the inspector you have no business telling the guy how to charge.

 

[satcom]

I understand, it is the same here in most towns.:smile:

However that has nothing to do with this



IMO when you are on the phone as the inspector you have no business telling the guy how to charge.

I agree price is not an issue, expect for the declared premit job cost required on the application, no inspector should comment on price.

 

[Greg Swartz]

I had an inspection on Monday, and the inspector brought his new boss along for the ride.
So, I got to meet the new head electrical inspector too...

Anyway, the inspector asks how things are going. I let him know that things are going quite well, and we talked shop... and his parting words were: "You're not charging enough..."

I understand... but like the first post, I have a family to feed too... we're trying to raise our rates, but we have guys that constantly cut our throats too.

The fact that my business has grown to 8 guys is (quite often) beyond me!
I want to charge more, but when I do, I get the shoppers who say "That is too much!"

 

[kbsparky]

What we charge is none of the inspectors' business.

Inspection fees around here are based on what was installed, not how much it cost to install it.

Why should I have to pay more for the same inspection than the lowball guy does?

 

[hillbilly1]

A lot of cities don't really care about the inspections getting done, they just want to know how much the property value was increased for tax purposes!

 

[growler]

IMO when you are on the phone as the inspector you have no business telling the guy how to charge.

I agree that it's not the inspectors job to comment on pricing but if you were an inspector and caught someone working without a permit and then after getting the permit he was there for two weeks on a job that he listed as costing $2K it would be a little suspicious.

Other than not getting a permit the next trick most often pulled is getting a permit for a small job but actually doing a much larger job and then only showing the inspector part of the work.

This guy may not be as cheap nor as dumb as everyone thinks. He may be doing a larger job that he needs to completely finish before showing the inspector some small amount of work ( something worth about two grand ).

That I work cheap and have 5 kids to feed is a common enough story. If you want to BS someone it's good to use a story that will invoke a certain amount of sympathy. When in trouble, play dumb.

 

[Davids1964]

This is one reason why I let the home owener pull the permits. It takes me out of the equation with the City. The city only wants to know weather I have an Journeysman card and that's all.

 

[480sparky]

This is one reason why I let the home owener pull the permits. It takes me out of the equation with the City. The city only wants to know weather I have an Journeysman card and that's all.

That would never fly where I am. Most AHJs I work in want to know who does the work, and the permit is where that information is recorded.