Yellow colored conductor being used as neutral

[MasterTheNEC]

As an inspector I have recently been finding home services being installed with a 3 conductor triplex run in the mast with a yellow colored conductor or black with a yellow tracer as a neutral. When asked (usually a home owner) the installer stated they bought the wire at the local big box retailer or a local electrical supply store. No one mentioned to them that the neutral was required to be white in color. Since it is a violation, I need to disapprove the installation and they are then accessed a re-inspection fee. In some cases this also means they must wait days for another inspection and may go without power for that period.
Does anyone know the reasoning behind a manufacturer coloring this conductor yellow instead of white? I feel bad for some of these people as they are trying to save money by doing it themselves and end up paying more. I know I could be a great guy and not charge a fee but my time and gas cost me as well.
I have gone to the retailers and asked the store manager to suggest the person buy the white tape when purchasing the wire but not all of the salespeople are notified or qualified to know.

Firstly - Where you typically would see a "yellow" as the grounded conductor I would not automatically say it is a violation. The NEC does permit re-identification at the time on installation per Section 200.6(B)(4) for those conductors 4 AWG and Larger. Also while this is typically USE-2 conductors, in many cases it is a triple rated conductor which is also RHH and RHW-2 as well for use inside the structure as opposed to the statement in Section 338.12(B)(1), thus the need for the dual or triple ratings and added flame retardant properties.

The NESC has provisions to permit the use of "yellow" or "black with yellow" as the identifier, some companies (like ours) choose to simply make it Yellow, triple rate it and when 4 AWG or Larger let the installer re-identify it per the NEC. It allows it to be used in more than a single application.

Also just for clarity...the neural does not have to be white...it can be Gray, three continuous white or gray stripes along the conductors entire length on other than green insulation as well as by distinctive markings of white or gray at terminations where the conductors are 4 AWG or Larger in size.

 

[growler]

There are two big, black conductors and one small conductor with a stripe. Anyone that can't figure out which one is supposed to be the grounded conductor and handle it accordingly on the install side or the inspection side need not be involve with wires on any level.

Couldn't you say the same thing about anyone that didn't know to mark the grounded conductor with white or gray tape.

That's like saying there is no reason to mark the grounding conductor, heck it's the one connected to the ground bar/terminal. everyone knows that.

Read augie47s post about triplex from the big box stores. I have seen that cheap triplex sold at the big box stores here.

 

[ggunn]

Couldn't it be that the yellow stripe is just so that the installer knows which wire is which at both ends of the run? If you are running three wire single phase, all you really need to know is which wire is the neutral, right? The other two are interchangeable. So you just mark the one with the yellow stripe with white tape so it's compliant and you're done, right?

Or am I completely off base? That could be the case; I am an engineer, not an electrician.

 

[electricalist]

Couldn't it be that the yellow stripe is just so that the installer knows which wire is which at both ends of the run? If you are running three wire single phase, all you really need to know is which wire is the neutral, right? The other two are interchangeable. So you just mark the one with the yellow stripe with white tape so it's compliant and you're done, right?

Or am I completely off base? That could be the case; I am an engineer, not an electrician.

That makes sense to me.
Just means this wire isnt the other 2 .
120/240 with b phase @ 208. A and C could be larger than b in size.
Although already stated, in most cases its used for services and the inspector knows the poco is making that connection and should verify it to be grounded at the meter line side.

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[donaldelectrician]

That makes sense to me.
Just means this wire isnt the other 2 .
120/240 with b phase @ 208. A and C could be larger than b in size.
Although already stated, in most cases its used for services and the inspector knows the poco is making that connection and should verify it to be grounded at the meter line side.

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Purple tape kinda had that meaning too !





Don

 

[kwired]

To the inspector,
even though it is common place for the triplexed cable to have a yellow stripe, the cable itself may not be non-compliant as long as it's multi listed as not just URD but also be listed as RHW also. The yellow is a manufacturing thing. The white tape is your call but I don't think you should hold up a job because of it. I don't find anyone working with electrical to mistake the conductor with yellow stripe as being the neutral especially the Power company.

Summed up most of my thoughts, I don't know why they make it yellow, they have for years, both in USE only as well as dual/triple rated conductors. Maybe it cost less to make yellow then white? Maybe because of permission that was mentioned from NESC? But why the dual/triple rates stuff? - that is only purchased because it is likely going to be in a NEC application and needs such rating. POCO's only buy the USE only stuff - it don't need to pass NEC inspections, and is lower cost.

There are two big, black conductors and one small conductor with a stripe. Anyone that can't figure out which one is supposed to be the grounded conductor and handle it accordingly on the install side or the inspection side need not be involve with wires on any level.

:thumbsup:

Couldn't you say the same thing about anyone that didn't know to mark the grounded conductor with white or gray tape.

That's like saying there is no reason to mark the grounding conductor, heck it's the one connected to the ground bar/terminal. everyone knows that.

Read augie47s post about triplex from the big box stores. I have seen that cheap triplex sold at the big box stores here.

There isn't a reason to mark grounded conductor other then to protect those that don't know any better anyway, at least when you have a reduced sized conductor for the neutral there isn't - JMO. I've seen it many times when it wasn't marked correctly - I still figured out what it was - and when the current is flowing in the circuit it doesn't stop and say wait a minute this is wrong color of insulation here.

Couldn't it be that the yellow stripe is just so that the installer knows which wire is which at both ends of the run? If you are running three wire single phase, all you really need to know is which wire is the neutral, right? The other two are interchangeable. So you just mark the one with the yellow stripe with white tape so it's compliant and you're done, right?

Or am I completely off base? That could be the case; I am an engineer, not an electrician.

Most of these cable assemblies the yellow/yellow striped conductor is typically two sizes smaller then the other conductors. Using a little white tape is not that big of a deal if you have an inspector that won't let it go either. If you are an electrician - no big deal you probably have some tape in truck/van, or even a white paint marker would work. If you are a homeowner that did your own work and get shot down by inspector for only this one violation - congratulations, you probably should consider a career in the electrical field.

 

[LEO2854]

I don't know the answer to your question but may through another wrench in the works.


I suspect the conductor is direct burial cable and likely has no flame resistance listing which would mean it can't be used for an overhead service or indoors in the first place v

This cable is used all the time for overhead services, it is RHW-2 Sunlight resistant along with several other ratings listed on it.

White tape should be put on it but sometimes it don't happen......:lol:

 

[iwire]

This cable is used all the time for overhead services, it is RHW-2 Sunlight resistant along with several other ratings listed on it.


White tape should be put on it but sometimes it don't happen......:lol:

You are guessing, as a number of posters have pointed out often the cable is not suitable for above ground use.

It might be dual rated but the OP has not told us enough info to know.

 

[growler]

There isn't a reason to mark grounded conductor other then to protect those that don't know any better anyway, at least when you have a reduced sized conductor for the neutral there isn't - JMO. I've seen it many times when it wasn't marked correctly - I still figured out what it was - and when the current is flowing in the circuit it doesn't stop and say wait a minute this is wrong color of insulation here.

Does the code say that the grounded conductor (neutral) should be identified with any color that can be figured out by a qualified person (electrician)? Is that what you want it to say?

One of the best things the NEC has done is to make a rule and keep it consistant.

One of the dumbest thing I have ever herd of is that in the UK they changed the color of the neutral conductor to what was once a phase conductor and the neurtal color is now used a phase conductor. And to make sure that no one gets confused they are supposed to mark it on the panel. I'm sure they can figure it out but why the hell should they even have to.

 

[ptonsparky]

Lack of white is being picky, anal even. Confirm the appropriate conductor was used, lend them a roll of white tape and finish your inspection.

 

[growler]

Lack of white is being picky, anal even.

An inspection is ment to be picky or even anal.


It's not about the white tape it's about where to draw the line in the sand. No one likes inspectors that make their own rules but this is the same thing. If an inspector approves this then he has just made his own rules. That doesn't mean any other inspector will let this slide. The rules are ment to be enforced equally for everyone.

Does an inspector get to choose which rules to enforce?

As far as lending him a roll of white tape? Should an inspector even have to carry white tape or green tape or maybe a torque wrench. Where does the inspectors job stop?

 

[kwired]

Does the code say that the grounded conductor (neutral) should be identified with any color that can be figured out by a qualified person (electrician)? Is that what you want it to say?

One of the best things the NEC has done is to make a rule and keep it consistant.

One of the dumbest thing I have ever herd of is that in the UK they changed the color of the neutral conductor to what was once a phase conductor and the neurtal color is now used a phase conductor. And to make sure that no one gets confused they are supposed to mark it on the panel. I'm sure they can figure it out but why the hell should they even have to.

Is that really that different then here? I think most of their wiring is cable type methods - NEC lets us do that with cable methods as well.

I have no issue with designating white/gray for grounded conductors, but when you have a three wire single phase feed any qualified person knows the smaller conductor is the neutral. This rant is not so much about NEC as it is about anal inspectors, the yellow color typically used isn't really a true yellow either - more of a dirty looking might have been a white at one time when it is just stripes, but lately they seem to color the entire conductor and it is more yellow looking when they do that. Still it is clearly something different then the other conductors and is not the same as three same size same color - though the one landed on the neutral bus is still pretty obviously the neutral to most qualified people on an install that has been in service and working.

These rules push the limit some on protecting the untrained from what they don't really now anyway. So does some of the rules on identifying phase and system. May be good design practices but really don't need to be code.

 

[mcb979]

I must say, I am surprised by some of the replies here. I thought this was a professional forum. Anyone who would call an inspector anal or nitpicking for trying to enforce the NEC, no matter how minute the violation, is clearly not a professional.
Don't worry guys, I won't be back to this forum.

 

[electricalist]

I must say, I am surprised by some of the replies here. I thought this was a professional forum. Anyone who would call an inspector anal or nitpicking for trying to enforce the NEC, no matter how minute the violation, is clearly not a professional.
Don't worry guys, I won't be back to this forum.

I wouldnt take every comment to heart. This is one of the few forums that you can get the code replies, opinions, and different interpretations of code meanings without it turning into a bunch of disrespect.
There are grey areas in the code book that lead to these threads.
I realize the conductor has a non compliant color on it and no amount of tape is gonna change that, unless you re tape the whole thing. So the AHJ has every right to fail it or give them a yellow tag and tell them he would prefer tape.
The maker of the wire and who ever approves its use are the ones to question.

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[five.five-six]

I would want it marked white or gray, you never know when an intrepid fool (AKA homeowner) might get in beyond his depth in that panel and we want to geve them every chance to stay alive.

 

[kwired]

I must say, I am surprised by some of the replies here. I thought this was a professional forum. Anyone who would call an inspector anal or nitpicking for trying to enforce the NEC, no matter how minute the violation, is clearly not a professional.
Don't worry guys, I won't be back to this forum.

Some people are anal some are not, inspectors are in both groups as are installers, you find that everywhere. Some comments were about when you run into such a situation and not so much collectively calling inspectors anal.

I would want it marked white or gray, you never know when an intrepid fool (AKA homeowner) might get in beyond his depth in that panel and we want to geve them every chance to stay alive.

You think white tape has that much of a chance of being the deal breaker on saving a life with DIY guys?

If anything it makes it worse in some situations. Take the open neutral with voltage supplied to other conductor of circuit. That white wire is not "dead" in that situation.

Best thing is to keep untrained out of the electrical equipment. We need to be teaching them it is dangerous and that they need to hire professionals, not selling DIY self help books, promoting DIY advice on internet chat sites, or even promoting electrical DIY advice at the home centers. That said I feel the constitution still says a homeowner has the right to do what they want at their home. The problem is how safe an condition do they leave for the next owner?

If we would promote hiring professionals - and less DIY were doing such work - I think we could have less of the codes that have come about in the past 20 years or so that really don't mean a lot to someone that does know what they are doing.

 

[ptonsparky]

I must say, I am surprised by some of the replies here. I thought this was a professional forum. Anyone who would call an inspector anal or nitpicking for trying to enforce the NEC, no matter how minute the violation, is clearly not a professional.
Don't worry guys, I won't be back to this forum.

I came on to strong with that comment. Please accept my apologies.

 

[Cow]

We use the same cable that Leo posted, that's dual rated RHH RHW, etc. We usually buy a big reel of it and make cuts when needed. That said, I do mark it with white tape although I have seen many new services installed without any tape on the yellow striped neutral.

 

[augie47]

I sure won't say I never passed a job with a neutral not properly identified but keep in mind every time an inspector chooses not to enforce a Code requirement, no matter how minor, there is liability involves. Take Murphy's Law into account and let us say an apprentice lineman fails to properly connect the POCO drop energizing the neutral. When the smoke clears, literally and figuratively, you can bet the inspector's name will be on that lawsuit.

 

[kwired]

I sure won't say I never passed a job with a neutral not properly identified but keep in mind every time an inspector chooses not to enforce a Code requirement, no matter how minor, there is liability involves. Take Murphy's Law into account and let us say an apprentice lineman fails to properly connect the POCO drop energizing the neutral. When the smoke clears, literally and figuratively, you can bet the inspector's name will be on that lawsuit.

But people will sue you these days over anything, just look at them funny and you may have to defend it somehow. That apprentice lineman has seen that yellow stripe or conductor many times on their own distribution conductors - and they don't re-mark it there, but you are saying he may think it is something besides the grounded conductor if it is not POCO supplied conductors? Sorry but not fully buying that one, but still do realize what code does say.