You charge what?

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We didn’t have inspections until about 10 years ago, competing against carpenters, plumbers and everything else. That’s why I drive 70+ miles a day to make a living.
Yup. Upstate NY here little/no licensing, few/no permits, third party joke inspections if at all. No way I can make the kind of money many of you are talking about here. That's why I travel to and work in Seattle so much, and you thought your commute was bad.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Yup. Upstate NY here little/no licensing, few/no permits, third party joke inspections if at all. No way I can make the kind of money many of you are talking about here. That's why I travel to and work in Seattle so much, and you thought your commute was bad.
Do you fly, drive or hitchhike between those locations?
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
I installed temperature sensors tied to the energy management system for a customer. They had black roofs and white roofs on their stores. Talked to their project manager later on, he said the difference was negligible.
I'm pretty sure building science researchers who study this have much larger data sets showing it does make a difference, although I don't have a reference.

Cheers, Wayne
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
OSB sheeting that has a foil on one side.
So you're going to rip off all the roof sheathing and replace it with foil-faced OSB? I'm not sure that's a cost-effective measure if your existing roof sheathing is in good condition. And while a radiant barrier is required in new construction, I don't think it would be required for a simple reroof.

What's the SRI of the shingle you've selected? I expect the energy code does place a lower bound on that for a reroof.

Cheers, Wayne
 

Fulthrotl

~~Please excuse the mess. Sig under construction~~
So you're going to rip off all the roof sheathing and replace it with foil-faced OSB? I'm not sure that's a cost-effective measure if your existing roof sheathing is in good condition. And while a radiant barrier is required in new construction, I don't think it would be required for a simple reroof.

What's the SRI of the shingle you've selected? I expect the energy code does place a lower bound on that for a reroof.

Cheers, Wayne
this is a 1962 house. with all the glory of 1962 technology.
1x6 stringers, with cedar shakes over 15# paper.
comp put over that, without it being removed. a recover,
which is no longer allowed, but it was then. the second roof is old.

amazingly, there are no leaks.

we are removing two layers of roofing. leaving the 1x6 stringers.
then, a layer of OSB with foil on the bottom side.
then, glace fire and ice. twirly whirly vents in three places.
then, comp shingles, matching most of the rest of the neighborhood.

the foil backed OSB is the same cost as bare OSB, according to my roofer.
that is to say, there is no upcharge to me for it. he's already charging me,
and i'm sure he wants to keep the total bid under $20k, for sticker shock reasons.
he's also said he's seen jobs with enough wood rot and termite damage to rival
the original quote, positioning me for any bad news.

i boracared the attic and crawl space with a thick application when i bought the
house, and that should have calmed down the termites, but one doesn't always
know how bad it is until stuff is opened up, does one?

i'm sticking in a couple of roof jacks and a couple 6" vents when this gets redone.
also, a 2" roof jack for a service upgrade. i've never upgraded the service, and will
do so after the roof goes on. i'd do it before, but there are constraints preventing that.
it is what it is.
 

Fulthrotl

~~Please excuse the mess. Sig under construction~~
For roof energy savings, I came across an interesting concept.
1) Old roof is removed.
2) A set of purlins is installed, with a gap of 2 feet between each purlin.
3) Insulating foam sheet is installed between and over the purlins.
4) A set of furring strips are installed in the direction of the rafters. The reason for the purlins is to provide an easy target for long screws to attach the furring.
5) A new roof deck is laid over the furring, and the roof installed as normal.

This allows a huge amount of insulation to be retrofit while also venting the space under the roof, with no rafters acting as thermal bridges.

I figured something to explore in detail whenever I need to get a roof done.

-Jon
yup. however... the house doesn't merit this spiffy a roof. it's a itty bitty tract house
of 1,700 sq. ft. in a town with overpriced real estate. comps for this floorplan recently
are just under $900k. the house sold new in 1962 for $21k. twirly whirly vents and foil
will keep attic temps reasonable, and the attic has R-30 insulation.

what i was gonna do was put a heat exchanger in the attic, that pulled all the attic heat out
and put it to use heating the pool. then, you want the attic to get as hot as possible so you
can collect the heat.

it wasn't worth the cost of the install, even doing it myself, and the attic volume isn't enough
for it to work well, based on the calcs provided by the solar attic heat exchanger company.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
twirly whirly vents
I've never been convinced that the frequency for which a twirly whirly vent is being blown by the wind and its rotation draws more air than a passive vent exceeds the frequency for which there's not enough wind and the rising air is rotating the twirly whirly, causing the exhaust to be impeded.

what i was gonna do was put a heat exchanger in the attic
I would think directly on the roof would be simpler and more effective. To the extent it heats the pool water, it would be cooling the roof.

Cheers, Wayne
 

Fulthrotl

~~Please excuse the mess. Sig under construction~~
I've never been convinced that the frequency for which a twirly whirly vent is being blown by the wind and its rotation draws more air than a passive vent exceeds the frequency for which there's not enough wind and the rising air is rotating the twirly whirly, causing the exhaust to be impeded.


I would think directly on the roof would be simpler and more effective. To the extent it heats the pool water, it would be cooling the roof.

Cheers, Wayne
actually, a heat exchanger inside the attic both looks better, and works better. i don't have enough cubic feet of air
to make it work. the pipes on the roof plan really is problematic. my wife has had two houses with them, and paid
to have both of them removed after they failed. it would be a cold day in hell when she signs up for that one.

here is the company that does them well... not much of a web site, but they have been doing them since 1986...


there was a local fellow named mark urban who did a flowreversal valve for pools that put the hot water in at
the deep drain, so it heated the pool from the bottom up. that is how i heat mine. i can raise the pool temp of
15,000 gallons of water 30 degrees in about 6 hours, and the pool is warmer at the bottom than the top.
so, if i'm using the pool on the weekend, i turn it on friday morning, and shut it off for the weekend, and it stays
toasty warm on 6 hours of gas. that takes the pool to 88 degrees.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,Ga
Occupation
Field coordinator/ technical support
Attic foam is the big thing in Atlanta right now. Makes it nice crawling around in it summer or winter! I have ridge vents, which work real well where I’m at.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Attic foam is the big thing in Atlanta right now. Makes it nice crawling around in it summer or winter! I have ridge vents, which work real well where I’m at.
Seen a few places that spray foamed the underside of the roof, particularly in cases where low clearances would result in regular insulation methods filling the entire space and no room for ventilation air space.
 

Coppersmith

Senior Member
Location
Tampa, FL, USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Attic foam is the big thing in Atlanta right now. Makes it nice crawling around in it summer or winter! I have ridge vents, which work real well where I’m at.
When I was designing a new house for myself a while back I spent a lot of time evaluating foam insulation installed under the roof and I have also been in attics where it has been done. When it's done properly, it is wonderous! The attic is almost as cool as the air conditioned space of the house. However when improperly mixed and applied, the foam can release toxic fumes so bad that the foam has to be removed. (I saw a bunch of reports of this happening.) You know how you remove the foam? You can't. You have to remove the entire roof and rebuild it. This put me off foaming my roof although I really want to. (House is still in planning stage.) If you ever decide to have this done, make sure you have it in your contract with the installer that they are responsible for repairs if the foam fails and make sure they are a big enough company to follow through and not go bankrupt.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
When I was designing a new house for myself a while back I spent a lot of time evaluating foam insulation installed under the roof and I have also been in attics where it has been done. When it's done properly, it is wonderous! The attic is almost as cool as the air conditioned space of the house. However when improperly mixed and applied, the foam can release toxic fumes so bad that the foam has to be removed. (I saw a bunch of reports of this happening.) You know how you remove the foam? You can't. You have to remove the entire roof and rebuild it. This put me off foaming my roof although I really want to. (House is still in planning stage.)
Is roof typically that much hotter or can this be a problem in walls as well? Particularly sheet metal covered buildings where they spray foam the back side of the sheet metal? Seen a lot of that in more recent years.
 
Lots of spray foam here in the cold northeast. I know there are some horror stories on YouTube, but never heard of any cases other than those.

"Hot roofs" are common here too - foam sprayed right on the roof underside. It's what I would do at my house. Only disadvantage is IIRC some shingle manufacturers have a shorter warranty for hot roofs, but really who cares about shingle warranty anyway.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
When I was designing a new house for myself a while back I spent a lot of time evaluating foam insulation installed under the roof and I have also been in attics where it has been done. When it's done properly, it is wonderous! The attic is almost as cool as the air conditioned space of the house. However when improperly mixed and applied, the foam can release toxic fumes so bad that the foam has to be removed.....
I think that the above deck rigid foam insulation would work as well as spraying foam under the roof, with the benefit that you don't need to worry about the mix being correct. But that is just my own day-dreaming :)


-Jon
 

cpickett

Senior Member
Location
Western Maryland
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
I went to a call this past Thursday. The customer wanted an estimate to wire a mini split. I should have known when I asked him if he had gotten an estimate from an hvac company to install the mini split. Man he looked at me and said yeah they want to much to install it Im going to do it myself. I gave him an estimate of $1575.00 plus tax which would be $1685.25 after taxes this includes permits and my service fee. He backs up and says why is it so much My buddy said he can do it for $500. Then he asked me if I could cut my price down, and I told him nope that’s what it takes for me to run a company. He then asked me for a price break down.
$79 plus tax service fee
$100 permit
$475 material with 25% mark up
$921 labor
$110.25 tax
Then the customer asked how long will it take you to do the job. I told him a hour and a half give or take, plus the time I will have if I have to meet with the inspector. He proceeds to tell me that you can’t justify changing over $400 dollars an hour. I finally just look at him and tell him that he is paying for the quality of my work, the warranty, my knowledge, and for my time which valuable to me.
He finally says I’m going to just pay your service fee and have my buddy do it. I couldn’t help it I laughed and said your buddy is doing it for the cost of the material. 🤣🤣🤣
He paid me my fee and I left.
you're nicer than me, I would have just told him to call his 'buddy'
 

__dan

Senior Member
I put Elk Prestique architechural six nail shingles on the roof. At the time they were $47 / square, probably $100+ / square today. They sold the same shingle as 40 yr and 50 yr warranty. Same shingle, just you could pay more for extra warranty. Never put a three nail three tab shingle on anything, unless you like doing that multiple times.

Neighbor's two different pretty big trees have landed on them twice. I should post the pictures. I installed roof myself and remove trees myself. Also told the neighbor's to pay up on their insurance, but since I also do my own lawyering and (am cheap) at it, they've been grinning and skating on that one (two acually, twice). No leaks still but I was planning on reroofing that side when the second tree landed on it. Same side other half.

Definately ice and water the whole thing. The Grace bituminous product melts into the sheathing and seals everything. I ice and watered per code and asphalt felt the rest, but I will always ice and water all of it from now on.

Insulated roof should be great, but if you're going for super expensive and build it once fix it never, try a vented air gap betwen the (moisture barriers) closed cell foam and the asphalt comp product shingles. They do not breathe. I'm sure it's perfect, but over the life of the roof it gets hammered with everything imperfect. It will need to exhale every now and then.

There are guys with phd's who study failed, state of the art roofing systems. Just studying failed roofing systems is an industry in itself. There can only be one vapor barrier (in the right place) with breathable materials both sides (Roxul comes to mind). If you're going to have two vapor barriers, the closed cell foam and shingles, eternity builders will have a vented furring strip channel system betwen them. Some H2O will get in there, either condensation or leaks, but not so much that a little venting cannot take care of it.

Or, you can always save some money and spend your time complaining about the leaks (mold, contractors, engineers, everryone who disagrees with you, ...).
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I put Elk Prestique architechural six nail shingles on the roof. At the time they were $47 / square, probably $100+ / square today. They sold the same shingle as 40 yr and 50 yr warranty. Same shingle, just you could pay more for extra warranty. Never put a three nail three tab shingle on anything, unless you like doing that multiple times.

Neighbor's two different pretty big trees have landed on them twice. I should post the pictures. I installed roof myself and remove trees myself. Also told the neighbor's to pay up on their insurance, but since I also do my own lawyering and (am cheap) at it, they've been grinning and skating on that one (two acually, twice). No leaks still but I was planning on reroofing that side when the second tree landed on it. Same side other half.

Definately ice and water the whole thing. The Grace bituminous product melts into the sheathing and seals everything. I ice and watered per code and asphalt felt the rest, but I will always ice and water all of it from now on.

Insulated roof should be great, but if you're going for super expensive and build it once fix it never, try a vented air gap betwen the (moisture barriers) closed cell foam and the asphalt comp product shingles. They do not breathe. I'm sure it's perfect, but over the life of the roof it gets hammered with everything imperfect. It will need to exhale every now and then.

There are guys with phd's who study failed, state of the art roofing systems. Just studying failed roofing systems is an industry in itself. There can only be one vapor barrier (in the right place) with breathable materials both sides (Roxul comes to mind). If you're going to have two vapor barriers, the closed cell foam and shingles, eternity builders will have a vented furring strip channel system betwen them. Some H2O will get in there, either condensation or leaks, but not so much that a little venting cannot take care of it.

Or, you can always save some money and spend your time complaining about the leaks (mold, contractors, engineers, everryone who disagrees with you, ...).
I don't know about where you are but around here you are just about guaranteed a hail storm will destroy your 50 year shingles before they are 50 years old.

Insurance? If it is 30 years old you are not getting what you probably should to replace it, not without litigation with the insurance company first.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
I don't know about where you are but around here you are just about guaranteed a hail storm will destroy your 50 year shingles before they are 50 years old.

Insurance? If it is 30 years old you are not getting what you probably should to replace it, not without litigation with the insurance company first.
It depends on your insurance company. Ours is New Jersey Manufacturers. Contents are typically depreciated, IIRC, but structural is at replacement cost.
 
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