Zinsco & FPE Panels ?

[kwired]

I guess an insurance company can do whatever they want.

But we have service electrical companies and home inspectors going as far as to tell customers that FPE and Zinsco and maybe a few others have been recalled as a hazard.

I kind of wondered where these people were getting their information since Zog posted the only official document I have ever been able to find on the matter.

Recall means it will be fixed, exchanged or replaced by whoever is doing the recall - these haven't been in production for like 40+ years now.

I have participated in recalls of Square D items, you may not get any labor reimbursement, but they do give you a new replacement and take back the recalled unit (usually).

 

[bkludecke]

I've been in this trade since 1974 and an EC since 1978. We've done thousands of electrical service calls over the years and Zinsco/Sylvania panels were the panels of choice for most residential services for decades in this area. While we have seen some failures such as burned bussing and meter clips here and there these have never caused a fire as far as I know. I've never seen any particular brand of residential circuit breaker actually cause a fire, injury or death. Poor workmanship and just plain ignorance or negligence seems to be the real danger when it comes to electrical wiring. Insurance companies will do what they will and we will do whatever the customer asks so long as it is not illegal, immoral, or fattening.

 

[kwired]

I've been in this trade since 1974 and an EC since 1978. We've done thousands of electrical service calls over the years and Zinsco/Sylvania panels were the panels of choice for most residential services for decades in this area. While we have seen some failures such as burned bussing and meter clips here and there these have never caused a fire as far as I know. I've never seen any particular brand of residential circuit breaker actually cause a fire, injury or death. Poor workmanship and just plain ignorance or negligence seems to be the real danger when it comes to electrical wiring. Insurance companies will do what they will and we will do whatever the customer asks so long as it is not illegal, immoral, or fattening.

Even if a breaker fails to trip, it usually doesn't get much attention unless investigation is pretty thorough. Fire probably doesn't start at the breaker but rather at some point where excess heating caused ignition of nearby combustibles, and blame will get put on something else because they don't really know what caused the excess heating.

 

[bkludecke]

I agree kwired. I just have not witnessed the death and carnage that some folks on this forum seem to be concerned about. The body count just does not seem to be near what one would expect if the products and workmanship were that bad. Our company has always tried to deliver workmanship and quality way above requirements of the various codes and standards; but we have been amazed at how durable and generally safe even the poorest work seems to be. Product manufacturers have ample motivation to produce equipment which will perform well even when abused and installed by the least qualified among us.

 

[kwired]

I agree kwired. I just have not witnessed the death and carnage that some folks on this forum seem to be concerned about. The body count just does not seem to be near what one would expect if the products and workmanship were that bad. Our company has always tried to deliver workmanship and quality way above requirements of the various codes and standards; but we have been amazed at how durable and generally safe even the poorest work seems to be. Product manufacturers have ample motivation to produce equipment which will perform well even when abused and installed by the least qualified among us.

I have seen 18AWG zip cord run inside walls to general use receptacles. Insulation heated to point it was very brittle, but still intact. Bend it the slightest and it crumbles. Guessing the termination points are greatest risk of being a fire starter on this most of the time.

 

[growler]

https://inspectapedia.com/electric/Zinsco_Warranty_Contact.php

http://www.ismypanelsafe.com/fpe_experts.php

I just have not witnessed the death and carnage that some folks on this forum seem to be concerned about. The body count just does not seem to be near what one would expect if the products and workmanship were that bad.

We don't have that many Zinsco panels in the area so I can't claim to be an expert or even say I have any real experience with them at all. I don't think I have ever replaced one of them but I have seen a few.

From doing an on-line search I think that most of the information about these panels comes from the site posted by Jamesco. Then you see this same information repeated on a 100 other web sites and even referenced back to the original.

If you read enough you will notice they state they don't have the statistical data to say the panel is a fire hazard but they still suggest a replacement.

 

[bkludecke]

"I have seen 18AWG zip cord run inside walls to general use receptacles. Insulation heated to point it was very brittle, but still intact. Bend it the slightest and it crumbles. Guessing the termination points are greatest risk of being a fire starter on this most of the time."

I have also seen my share of failing or failed wiring over the years. I have seen 18/2 lampcords and multioutlet connectors plugged together and overloaded to the point of ignition. Even 18/2 twisted bell wire connected to the building power on the line side of the meter and run through the studs, charring everything it touched. But these things are relatively rare and present a much worse hazard than any listed panel or circuit breaker product. The insurance industry, equipment manufacturers, and public education programs are doing a fairly good job of keeping the use of electricity pretty safe as far as I can see.

 

[kwired]

"I have seen 18AWG zip cord run inside walls to general use receptacles. Insulation heated to point it was very brittle, but still intact. Bend it the slightest and it crumbles. Guessing the termination points are greatest risk of being a fire starter on this most of the time."

I have also seen my share of failing or failed wiring over the years. I have seen 18/2 lampcords and multioutlet connectors plugged together and overloaded to the point of ignition. Even 18/2 twisted bell wire connected to the building power on the line side of the meter and run through the studs, charring everything it touched. But these things are relatively rare and present a much worse hazard than any listed panel or circuit breaker product. The insurance industry, equipment manufacturers, and public education programs are doing a fairly good job of keeping the use of electricity pretty safe as far as I can see.

Yes, code minimums factor in enough safety that when you see somewhat mild violations, the risk isn't really all that severe. Not saying that is an excuse to disregard what code says, that just makes it even safer if you know you can get away with a little more but don't do it.

Conductors and ampacity is all about managing heat. It isn't that 18 AWG can't carry 20 amps, it is about how hot will it get if it does, if you find a way to manage that heat, or insulation that can withstand it, then it becomes more acceptable to put that sort of load on it. NEC mostly says you won't be putting 20 amps on 18 AWG no matter how you might manage heating - unless you build something and get it listed as is.

 

[rnatalie]

Do they still have these Zinsco panels or have they all been replaced or did the houses burn down?

I have replaced lots of panels over the years but almost all of them had real problems and not because of the brand name. \

No they didn't burn down, but it doesn't make it a great panel. I've never had CH or QO breakers fail 15 years after installation. Maybe Sylvania or whoever owns the brand now has shaped up, but the Zinsler stuff that was in my old house was crap and replacements weren't cheap. The panel was out of positions anyway so I just decided to be done with the blasted thing.

 

[jrlelectric]

After seeing a home inspection report that called for the replacement of a Zinsco panel because it was old, obsolete and a fire hazard I begin to wonder if there is any official documentation to back up that claim.

I have found many post by home inspectors and electric companies that state that Zinsco, FPE and even challenger should be removed as soon as possible to prevent fires.

What I can't seem to find is some official documentation by say the NFPA or other consumer protection agency that states flat out that these panels are considered a fire hazard and are therefore dangerous.

If you know of anything please post a link.

FPE and Zinsco were engineered using standards of long ago. I have supplied and LOAD TESTED BOTH OF THESE BRANDS SINCE 1985. Los Angeles has them everywhere. Federal Pacific is concerning because we have had many over the years that did not trip at the specified load. when Circuit Breakers are defective they almost will always trip early (not late) I have never come across a Zinsco Breaker that did not trip. Replacements are manufactured today for both of these panels meeting today's standards.


My personal opinion is that Zinsco Plug-in breakers are fine. Replacement Busbar is available in copper. The ZINSCO circuit breakers trip early when they are bad. Replacement breakers for both of these are expensive. I do not know if it violates the rules to put a link to the zinsco story and identification posted since it is on our website. I will be happy to give you the information if we receive a request.

 

[norcal]

Zinsco bolt-on seems to a improvement over their plug-in breakers, other then the fact that bolt-on breakers are only available used at mind numbing prices, but considering how long they have been discontinued, most likely time to replace.

 

[kwired]

Zinsco bolt-on seems to a improvement over their plug-in breakers, other then the fact that bolt-on breakers are only available used at mind numbing prices, but considering how long they have been discontinued, most likely time to replace.

Also very difficult to find their GFCI/AFCI's when needed

 

[norcal]

Also very difficult to find their GFCI/AFCI's when needed

Sylvania bolt-on GFCI's were made but would you want 40 year old electronics? Bolt-on breakers are rarely used where AFCI's are required, but still a problem with any obsolete panel, plug-in, or bolt-on.

 

[growler]

I pulled a Zinsco out of my house in Northern Virginia. I had already two breakers that had failed in it. I was happy to get rid of it.
The entire neighborhood had these installed.

One wouldn't reset (even after the load was removed).
The other one was weird. It experienced some sort of internal arcing that manifested itself with flickering the load.
I kind of lost my faith in them after that.

No they didn't burn down, but it doesn't make it a great panel. I've never had CH or QO breakers fail 15 years after installation.

No that would not make it a great panel simple because the house didn't burn down. But having a couple of bad breakers wouldn't make it a fire hazard and that's what this thread is about.

I have replaced lots of breakers over the years. Normally you don't know the age of the breaker.
I have replaced a Square-D (type QO) and a Cutler BR for dryer circuits that were less than a couple of years old. The breakers were tripping a lower than expected currents.Not a hazard.

 

[growler]

Zinsco bolt-on seems to a improvement over their plug-in breakers, other then the fact that bolt-on breakers are only available used at mind numbing prices, but considering how long they have been discontinued, most likely time to replace.

Also very difficult to find their GFCI/AFCI's when needed

The breakers may go bad and they may cost a fortune to buy replacements and there may not be GFCI/AFCI breakers available but that still wouldn't make them a fire hazard.

Just Google (Zinco Panel) and read all the hype about how dangerous they are.

 

[kwired]

The breakers may go bad and they may cost a fortune to buy replacements and there may not be GFCI/AFCI breakers available but that still wouldn't make them a fire hazard.

Just Google (Zinco Panel) and read all the hype about how dangerous they are.

I know about all the stories you will find on these as well as FPE. Knowing the truth as well as how thorough investigations actually were in those cases might be another story. I have seen instances where overcurrent protection doesn't open when you thought it should, even with fuses. It all comes comes down to actual current being within range of the trip curve for the device before anything else matters. Weak source and or long run is current limiting and can make for longer trip times, maybe longer than it takes for some weak connection to open first.

 

[norcal]

I have not gone to the inspect NY site in years so don’t even know if it’s still up but in reading it in the past they did have a agenda IMO. Like anything on the internet have to weigh the source.

 

[zog]

I have not gone to the inspect NY site in years so don’t even know if it’s still up but in reading it in the past they did have a agenda IMO. Like anything on the internet have to weigh the source.

Easy to make claims against a company no longer in business (And that no longer has lawyers lol)

 

[readydave8]

I've never had CH or QO breakers fail 15 years after installation.

I have, very rare though

 

[kwired]

Originally Posted by rnatalie
I've never had CH or QO breakers fail 15 years after installation.

I have, very rare though

Seen both fail plenty of times in harsh conditions - hog barns, fertilizer plants, etc. Don't care if you put them in a NEMA 12/13X enclosure, that helps some, but pretty much anything will eventually fail anyway.

Exterior mounting in said locations also helps, but nothing lasts forever at such places.