Zinsco Panels and Breakers

[Energy-Miser]

Hi,
I have come across a few of these panels, in a commercial renovation job. The panels and breakers seem old, but owner is not willing as of yet to replace them. I have come across some information on the web about hazards associated with these panels. Does anyone have experience with this particular brand? Will they become a problem at inspection time? Please advise. Best, E/M.
PS, I will be away until later this evening, so will not be able to interact right away with your comments, questions, etc. but appreciate your input and will get back on this evening.

 

[Buck Parrish]

The only problems I have heard, are related to them being old. And the availability of parts.

 

[brian john]

These commercial panels are bolt in circuit breakers?

Often panels were Zinsco and the CB's were manufactured by other firms.

Have him (you or a sub) high-current test a a random lot of CB's and see if they pass.

Perform a visual inspectin and IR under load.

Megger the panels.

Perform an FOP across the panel from line lugs to load terminations with load on the CBs.

 

[charlie]

If memory serves me right, the Zinsco circuit breakers are just magnetic and not thermal/magnetic. Also, I believe, Sylvania picked up the Zinsco line, discontinued everything but the circuit breakers, and continues (ed) to manufacture them for replacements.

 

[ramsy]

Often panels were Zinsco and the CB's were manufactured by other firms. ..Perform an FOP across the panel from line lugs to load terminations with load on the CBs.

FOP = Function Operation?
Is this done with a meter, Megger, or load tester?

Here's another source for Zinsco
http://www.pacificcoastbreaker.com/catalog/219

 

[GUNNING]

If they want it let em own it. All of it.

If they want it let em own it. All of it.

Zinscos are now through Connecticut Electric out of Washington state. The new ones are manufactured in china. the new ones are not real reliable in that they trip and wont reset. The original ones would burn out and take out a piece of the panel with it.
Id tell the owner code changes will force him to change out the service. He can do it now or when he adds a 15 or 20 amp circuit to any place in the house. Educate them, then let the owner make the decision. Then have him sign off on the panel. It would be his headache then. Cheap doesn't work well in the dark.

 

[norcal]

What voltage and ? are these Zinsco panels ? If they are bolt on they are quite dear to buy (used) and if 3 pole plug in are still produced I dunno. Zinsco panels /switchboards used FPE breakers on anything over 240 volts or 225 amps.

BTW Zinsco became Sylvania then Sylvania became Challenger, which later was bought by Westinghouse later Eaton merged their Cutler -Hammer line into Westinghouse's distribution & controls div. ......

 

[ultramegabob]

Mark my words, eventually some day they will regret not replacing the Zinsco panels when it was convenient. It is a sure thing they will wind up spending more money on labor and parts replacing those crappy breakers, and the downtime involved, than what they would spend installing a nice new modern panels now.

 

[brian john]

FOP=

Fall of Potential test (FOP)

With any electrical procedures that involve making measurements with energized conductors care must be taken and proper PPE must be worn

Fall of potential is a measurement of voltage drop (VD), in a circuit that is the voltage lost to heating due to resistance in the circuit. To perform this test one measures voltage from the line side connections to the load side connections, the readings are typically in the millivolts range and require load.

For example with a 3-phase Circuit Breaker that is nuisance tripping, measure current (balance loads are beneficial but not necessary), then measure from the line bus to the load conductors (if bare conductor is exposed), for all three phases. If one phase has a higher that average millivolts reading, then try to isolate this issue. Measure from line bus to the Circuit Breaker bus stab, if all 3-phases have millivolts readings that are the same (or close to the same) measure from the bus stab to the load side conductor termination connector (through the Circuit Breaker), if all these readings are close, next take measurements from the load side termination connector to the load conductor. In this case you can determine if it is a line bus connection issue, bad Circuit Breaker or a load conductor termination issue. Any accessible portion of the device can be tested in this method.

.

 

[mdshunk]

If you're adding very many circuits, it's often cheaper to replace the panel than it is to buy the new breakers you'd need. Evaluate this fact, and you can pretty much make the desicion to replace the panel without any owner input. You'd be saving him or her money in that case. Naturally, keep them in the loop. If a new breaker is 100 bucks a pop, and you need 5 or 6, you might be able to change out the panel for that same price.

 

[ramsy]

FOP=
Fall of Potential test (FOP)

Thanks brian

 

[Sierrasparky]

Get rid of them. there old they probably won't trip as fast as a modern breaker. I've dead short these and they won't trip. I've seen them burn up stuff. There pretty common in Calif.
A replacement 20 amp is probably 40 bucks.
A 50 amp two pole 65.00
A 100 amp is about 175.00:-?

 

[satcom]

Get rid of them. there old they probably won't trip as fast as a modern breaker. I've dead short these and they won't trip. I've seen them burn up stuff. There pretty common in Calif.
A replacement 20 amp is probably 40 bucks.
A 50 amp two pole 65.00
A 100 amp is about 175.00:-?

They do make for a nice display when you going into a dark basement or garage, the arc sparks coming from the old panels, and the snap, and popping sounds, that some produce, might suggest it is time to replace.

 

[Energy-Miser]

Thermal Imagers

Thermal Imagers

greetings,
There has been some comments on usefulness of thermal imaging in checking out this particular panel. I looked online and these devices seem to be pretty pricy. Is there a place that might rent them out for a day or two?
E/M.

 

[Energy-Miser]

Get rid of them. there old they probably won't trip as fast as a modern breaker. I've dead short these and they won't trip. I've seen them burn up stuff. There pretty common in Calif.
A replacement 20 amp is probably 40 bucks.
A 50 amp two pole 65.00
A 100 amp is about 175.00:-?

I will definitely suggest this again to the owner. I will be spending a day or two next week checking out the place to scope out the overall work. The panel issues will be a major part of the work, and I will have a chance to look at them more closely. BTW, the owner has told me that the 100 amp 3-phase breaker for the A/C system have been running so hot that he had to turn it off. E/M

 

[ultramegabob]

greetings,
There has been some comments on usefulness of thermal imaging in checking out this particular panel. I looked online and these devices seem to be pretty pricy. Is there a place that might rent them out for a day or two?
E/M.

I dont know about renting the equipment, but I know a hospital that I do service call work for hired a company that took thermal pictures of their equipment, which they had me come in replace all the componants that had been running at higher tempatures as preventive maintenance.

 

[Energy-Miser]

If you're adding very many circuits, it's often cheaper to replace the panel than it is to buy the new breakers you'd need. Evaluate this fact, and you can pretty much make the desicion to replace the panel without any owner input. You'd be saving him or her money in that case. Naturally, keep them in the loop. If a new breaker is 100 bucks a pop, and you need 5 or 6, you might be able to change out the panel for that same price.

Hi Marc,
This place has been occupied by tenants for a long time and there has been much modifications made. For example, the cover on one of the panels is make shift and it does not fit, and there are many missing C/B's where a knock out hole has been left, or a makeshift cover has been inserted, etc.

 

[Energy-Miser]

Mark my words, eventually some day they will regret not replacing the Zinsco panels when it was convenient. It is a sure thing they will wind up spending more money on labor and parts replacing those crappy breakers, and the downtime involved, than what they would spend installing a nice new modern panels now.

I agree. In our area FPE panels don't pass inspection. I have not heard anything about Zinsco panels one way or the other. E/M.

 

[Energy-Miser]

What voltage and ? are these Zinsco panels ? If they are bolt on they are quite dear to buy (used) and if 3 pole plug in are still produced I dunno. Zinsco panels /switchboards used FPE breakers on anything over 240 volts or 225 amps.

BTW Zinsco became Sylvania then Sylvania became Challenger, which later was bought by Westinghouse later Eaton merged their Cutler -Hammer line into Westinghouse's distribution & controls div. ......

One I had a chance to look closely was a 225 amp, 120/208 3 phase. E/M

 

[Energy-Miser]

Zinscos are now through Connecticut Electric out of Washington state. The new ones are manufactured in china. the new ones are not real reliable in that they trip and wont reset. The original ones would burn out and take out a piece of the panel with it.
Id tell the owner code changes will force him to change out the service. He can do it now or when he adds a 15 or 20 amp circuit to any place in the house. Educate them, then let the owner make the decision. Then have him sign off on the panel. It would be his headache then. Cheap doesn't work well in the dark.

Sign off on the paper work, very good idea if not pursuaded to repalce.