Can you Copyright,or Patent a control circuit?

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A simple control circuit, consisting of a 120 to 24 vac transformer two float switches,two 11 pin relays and latching the circuit.
My boss hired a contractor to do some work and wanted us to make up the circuit. I was handed two peices of paper with close to the same circuit shown in ladder rung type, with a hand writted note saying copyright or patent with his name and company name on it. I handed it back to him and said I did not think one could put a claim on a circuit like this.

Thanks for your input
Mike
 

sameguy

Senior Member
Location
New York
Occupation
Master Elec./JW retired
You could try, you need to do a search first; how ever goofballs are pat. names, "thats hot,tiger blood,etc."
 

Rockyd

Senior Member
Location
Nevada
Occupation
Retired after 40 years as an electrician.
Patent lawyers do a "search" and can answer a lot of questions...last time I had a great idea...and investigated - the going rate was about $1100. If that's cheap in comparison to what you have into it...
 

cadpoint

Senior Member
Location
Durham, NC
The use of the two terms are just different a quick search of the definiations will tell this out. One can lead to the other but

Both my _"laymen terms"

A Patent is a produce, process or end result of about the same that will produce something, IE or to do something but it creates ownership for the creator or the patent.

A copyright is usually a transmitted "right of the authorship" across various forms of communication; IE - radio,newspapers, books, Etc, thats in the big picture. The author or composer owns through the statement of a copyright the idea or transmitted idea that could also lead to the patent once refined...

Yes they can write that, but one has to carefull about disclosure of the process. They have to register the idea for patent to state patent pending. (as I recall)
 
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hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
A friend of mine patented a sewer releif valve, it cost him $10,000. theres one outside every Waffle House in the United States. Hav'nt seen him in years, don't know if it paid off, but it must have. I have designed several control circuits for the Blue, and the Orange boxes. Should have patented them, because there in every Orange box (competitors have made poor and dangerous copies). I now have a mechanical safety device that I will be patenting.
 

SOG38

Member
Location
USA
IMO
I don't think there is an issue of Copywrite or Patent as he can try tto patent or copywrite anything that may unlike anything done previously. The question is can you use the design?
you can recreate anything patented or copywriten as long as you are not creating it for sale. Also his handwriten document is meaningless.
If he hasn't gone through the legal process and can show it then it isn't worth the paper it is writen on.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
IMO
I don't think there is an issue of Copywrite or Patent as he can try tto patent or copywrite anything that may unlike anything done previously. The question is can you use the design?
you can recreate anything patented or copywriten as long as you are not creating it for sale. Also his handwriten document is meaningless.
If he hasn't gone through the legal process and can show it then it isn't worth the paper it is writen on.

Copyright requires no registration AFAIK. In fact, the posts you make here on this forum are copyrighted to you. You probably signed them over to someone else when you signed up for the forum.

Patents require you to go thru the patent process.

The thing is that copyrighting something only really prevents someone else from publishing your work. it would not prevent them from using the information in the work.

One thing about making custom stuff for someone else. If someone else paid for the time to design a circuit or a product, it probably belongs to them and not to the designer. Read carefully the boilerplate attached to P.O.s that come from most places and to the employment agreements virtually everyone signs these days.
 

tallgirl

Senior Member
Location
Great White North
Occupation
Controls Systems firmware engineer
FWIW, I have over a dozen patents issued in my name, have filed several dozen more, and reviewed several hundred. This post is worth what you paid for it -- nothing!

First, if the circuit is fairly simple, a copyright is worthless, though it does keep you from making more of them for someone else using the design you got handed. Which has been known to happen. The bad news is that it takes very little to change a circuit, get around any copyright, and then make a zillion of them. "Frankenstein" can be copyrighted, but you can make up your own "Mad scientist" story and sell it. That's the best way to understand the uselessness of a copyright in this case.

Now for patents.

To be patentable, the "thing" has meet certain patentability requirements --

1). Be useful -- this is the dumb requirement, since "entertaining" can be considered "useful". There's a patent lawyer who helped his son patent an "automatic butt-kicking device", which had a hand crank which drove a wheel, to which was affixed a number of boots. Sounds entertaining to me, and therefore, useful. It does keep certain classes of inventions from being invented -- "infernal contraptions" is one I heard about years ago. No patenting a booby-trap, in other words.

2). Novel -- it has to be new and unknown outside the group claiming the rights. This is why non-disclosure agreements =prior= to disclosure are important. If something is disclosed with no NDA in place, the patent may be invalid. Writing the NDA on the front of a drawing doesn't count -- consent to an NDA isn't automatic. There must be actual consent.

3). Non-obvious -- if you asked someone "skilled in the art" to make a thing that does what you want, would they come up with the same or similar solution? Not sure what is special about an 11-pin relay, but I'm betting it is similar enough to relays with fewer pins that a step-down transformer, float switch, and latching circuitry / hardware controlling a relay has been done a lot of times.

4). Subject matter -- is it something that can be patented in the first place? In this case, a control circuit is patentable subject matter.

In my non-professional, but highly experienced opinion, it's not patentable. At all. But, you paid nothing for this, I'm not a lawyer, seek competent counsel.
 

tallgirl

Senior Member
Location
Great White North
Occupation
Controls Systems firmware engineer
you can recreate anything patented or copywriten as long as you are not creating it for sale. Also his handwriten document is meaningless.

That's incorrect.

There are some exceptions for patentable works, but not really all that many, and "not for sale" isn't one of them. Here's what Wikipedia has to say --

In United States law, an infringement may occur where the defendant has made, used, sold, offered to sell, or imported an infringing invention or its equivalent.[3] One also commits indirect infringement if he actively and knowingly induces another to infringe, and is liable for that infringement. Types of "indirect infringement" include "contributory infringement" and "induced infringement."

You can't make one and you can't use one, and it doesn't matter if you're selling it or not.

If he hasn't gone through the legal process and can show it then it isn't worth the paper it is writen on.

For a copyright, that's not the case. A copyright is effective immediately and the only exceptions are 'fair use', which isn't well-defined anyway. Making an entire copy of a copyrighted work isn't 'fair use' under any case law, only using a small portion of the work is permitted.

For a patent, you may be able to make, use, sell, etc. a patentable "thing" during the pendency of the application. I have 20 or 30 un-issued applications at the patent office and you're free to make any of them. Just not gonna tell you which ones are mine ;) But the instant that patent issues (every Tuesday of the year that's not a Federal holiday ...), you're no longer allowed to do that. The law in that area is less clear, but making a patentable object after the patent application has been published can result in penalties.
 

tallgirl

Senior Member
Location
Great White North
Occupation
Controls Systems firmware engineer
Julie - are any of your patents related to the "born to brew" part of your signature?
db

Nope. Can't say as I have any patents on brewing. Which is a shame ...

I do have some pretty slick patents and the grid management ones that are working their way through the system will be really interesting considering the "Grid Frequency Experiment" that's set to happen starting next month -- see the thread here on the topic, or put that into Google.
 

JWCELECTRIC

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Nope. Can't say as I have any patents on brewing. Which is a shame ...

I do have some pretty slick patents and the grid management ones that are working their way through the system will be really interesting considering the "Grid Frequency Experiment" that's set to happen starting next month -- see the thread here on the topic, or put that into Google.

Julie,

Have you ever used your Inventor's Note book to sell an idea to a company without a patent? If so was it difficult? Also are each of these patents in your name paid by the company you work for or have you paid for them with your own money. How much would it cost to pantent an idea/product? Thanks

- Jim
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
tallgirl said:
3). Non-obvious -- if you asked someone "skilled in the art" to make a thing that does what you want, would they come up with the same or similar solution? Not sure what is special about an 11-pin relay, but I'm betting it is similar enough to relays with fewer pins that a step-down transformer, float switch, and latching circuitry / hardware controlling a relay has been done a lot of times.
I think that's the key issue with regards to almost any control circuit you can come up with. "Skilled in the arts" is going to cover EVERY decent electrician, engineer, panel builder, integrator, even a few hobbyists in the entire country. I cannot for the life of me think of anything that can be done with 2 11-pin relays and a couple of float switches that has not been done before and could not be duplicated by any reasonably skilled person just by describing the sequence of operations. It's a ridiculous notion, probably born out of his feeling exceptionally superior the day he figured it out on his own, but without knowing it isn't rocket science. If I could have patented every stupid little control logic circuit I have ever designed, I would be awash in patent applications and my lawyer would be rich, but I doubt anyone would have been unable to get the same results while avoiding my "patented" design.

By the way, an 11 pin relay is usually just a 3PDT relay. 3 Form C contacts (9 pins) and 2 pins for the coil terminals.
 

Rick Christopherson

Senior Member
A simple control circuit, consisting of a 120 to 24 vac transformer two float switches,two 11 pin relays and latching the circuit.
My boss hired a contractor to do some work and wanted us to make up the circuit. I was handed two peices of paper with close to the same circuit shown in ladder rung type, with a hand writted note saying copyright or patent with his name and company name on it. I handed it back to him and said I did not think one could put a claim on a circuit like this.

Thanks for your input
Mike
The circuit itself cannot be claimed (I assume its not unique), but the person's representation of that circuit does carry copyright protection. This can be an important distinction on work-for-hire like this.

What that means is that you cannot take his drawing and give it to someone else (or duplicate it), either for free or for fee. That would constitute a loss of his potential income, and he can come after you for that loss. Unregistered copyright is fairly weak, but it still has teeth if it results in a monetary loss. A Registered Copyright does have teeth, even if there is no direct loss of income. The work must be filed/registered, and when it is, then there is a penalty for unlawful duplication regardless of whether it actually damaged the copyright holder.

To protect the circuit itself, it must be a unique electrical design, which is highly unlikely. His protection applies to the piece of paper, but not the electrical design that the paper describes.
 

tallgirl

Senior Member
Location
Great White North
Occupation
Controls Systems firmware engineer
Julie,

Have you ever used your Inventor's Note book to sell an idea to a company without a patent? If so was it difficult? Also are each of these patents in your name paid by the company you work for or have you paid for them with your own money. How much would it cost to pantent an idea/product? Thanks

- Jim

Jim,

The 40+ applications that have actually been submitted with my name on them were all paid for by my former employer (I own a renewable energy monitoring business now) and are their property.

I had three patentable ideas since starting this company, one of which I went forward with a "Provisional Application" on. Electric utility tariffs have changed enough that the concept behind the patent is no longer as valuable, so I decided not to spend the money. The other two ideas are still locked up tight in my head, waiting on me to have more money.

Small entities (individuals, very small companies) have lower fees at the PTO and the folks there are more willing to help you through the process. But you need to keep in mind that the success rate for new inventors is VERY low because it takes time to understand what is truly patentable and what isn't. I think my "issue rate" -- application filed equals patent issued -- was about 1 in 10 for my first few years. Since then I've gotten much closer to 1 in 4 or 1 in 3. In other words, plan to throw away all your fees and expenses unless you have a successful inventor in your corner.

You should be able to go from concept to patent for under $10,000 if you have help. Expect closer to $15,000 without. And expect that first pile of money to go up in smoke.
 

tallgirl

Senior Member
Location
Great White North
Occupation
Controls Systems firmware engineer
To protect the circuit itself, it must be a unique electrical design, which is highly unlikely. His protection applies to the piece of paper, but not the electrical design that the paper describes.

It also applies to trivial modifications to the circuit, unless he can demonstrate that he derived it without access to the original, which sounds like that's the case.

The best approach, if he still needs to produce the circuit, would be for some other party to write a functional and electrical description of the circuit. Then, with that in hand, produce a new circuit. Even though it sounds like the initial disclosure was both unsolicited (or, unsolicited in the form presented) and unused (because it was returned), I'd wager money this person is trolling for a legal settlement.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
110630-1700 EDT

JWCELECTRIC:

There is much for you to learn about patents.

You should look at some actual patents to develop an understanding of the various parts and how to read a patent.

You can use
http://www.freepatentsonline.com
as a convenient place to view any patent from #1 to the present. But earlier patents may only be found by patent number or by the inventor.

There is a lot of advertizing garbage on the freepatentonline site, but that nuisance is justified in terms of the value the site provides.

Using Zoerlein -- http://www.freepatentsonline.com/result.html?query_txt="zoerlein"&sort=relevance&srch=top

For example enter a search for 2346811 . The result is
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/2346811.html
This was invented by Emil Zoerlein head of electrical engineering at Ford Motor Co. and assigned to Ford Motor. This is a very simple patent with only two claims, and possibly very broad relative to the basic concept.

Some ammeters at that time were built where the main wire to the battery was run to the instrument panel and in close proximity to the back side of the ammeter. Internal to the ammeter was a soft iron armature mounted on a pivoting needle. The magnetic field of the wire interacted with the armature on the needle and determined its deflection. The permanent magnet and soft iron vane performed the centering spring function. A spring and a mass make a very nice resonant device. Supply an impulse and and the result is an exponentially damped oscillation. The greater the mass the lower the frequency of oscillation.

Zeorlein basically added an inertia mass that lowered the resonant frequency of the system. If your noise, vibration, or other input is of a frequency well above the resonant frequency, then the resonator becomes a shunt and averaging circuit to those high frequencies. If there is no other damping you do not want to excite the resonator at its resonant frequency. Note, a mechanically balanced system was created.

A patent has drawings, a description, and claims. The claims are what legally define the scope of the patent. The purpose of the drawings and description is to provide for an understanding of the claims.

You have to be ingenious in writing the claims to make them read on your concept as broadly as possible but not be so broad that the claims read on existing art. Existing art is anything -- books, devices, other patents, etc.

In the Zeorlein patent it does not really discuss how the ammeter works, or what might help dampen the new lower frequency of resonance. Seems to imply something near critical damping is achieved. I do not have one to play with. I do suspect this design or variation on it was used in production.

I believe that claim 1 mostly would read on existing ammeters of the time if the damping wheel was removed from the claim. Some little details of the construction might help differentiate the claim as well. Note, the claim does not describe how the device works, but only the components of it, and their relative relationship to one another. Note, the extreme simplicity, low weight, great ruggedness, and manufacturing ease of this device.

Lets suppose you came up with a new means of making this meter, but did not use the permanent magnet, you used a spring. Then this claim would not read on your meter even though you used the inertia wheel.

If I have not missed something and you changed the armature from a soft iron piece to a permanent magnetic, then the claim would read on your device. This is because the word armature here is broad enough to include a soft iron piece or a permanent magnet.

You need to do your own searching for prior art, then have a patent attorney do a search. At this point you decide how to proceed.

The discussion here prompted me to look at the number of issued patents that reference patents of mine. The number of references to a particular patent ranged from 1 to 19. There might be numerous patent applications filed that failed to become patents because of reference to my patents. I have no way of knowing of any of these.

One patent application I made for an extremely simple but very voltage stable oscillator was denied because it read too closely to a simplified circuit in a text book in combination with some other prior art. The person that was paying the bills did not want to try to argue the non-obviousness of the combination. Thus, the application was abandoned.

If someone has not actually put the pieces together I do not agree it is obvious. A posteriori it is obvious because now it has been done. But a priori was it really obvious if it had not been done yet?

.
 
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JWCELECTRIC

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
You should be able to go from concept to patent for under $10,000 if you have help. Expect closer to $15,000 without. And expect that first pile of money to go up in smoke.

110630-1700 EDT

There is much for you to learn about patents.

.

Julie/Gar,

Thanks for info, I guess being in the industry for +/-25 years I have couple ideas to enhance some electrical products along with new products. I was just wondering the easiest way without giving my hard earned money to the Attorney fees.

-Jim
 

Rick Christopherson

Senior Member
Julie/Gar,

Thanks for info, I guess being in the industry for +/-25 years I have couple ideas to enhance some electrical products along with new products. I was just wondering the easiest way without giving my hard earned money to the Attorney fees.

-Jim
Before speaking with a manufacturer about your ideas, you would need a non-disclosure agreement (NDA) with them, but most companies will not want to enter into one blindly because there is a chance (from their perspective) that they have already previously thought of whatever concept you might be contemplating. If they have already been working on something similar, your NDA complicates the relationship, and they would rather turn away new ideas than to risk any existing ideas.

I did get a blind NDA from a tool manufacturer (Festool) for a product that I have since then, taken to market, but that was because I already had a relationship with them. (I manufacture and sell an accessory that was designed specifically for one of their tools.)

Whenever the topic of patents comes up, you always seem to hear the horror stories about the ones that cost tens of thousands of dollars, but that is because they are the most sensational (a better story). However, most patents do not need to cost that much. If you already have a Provisional Patent Application (PPA) and need to convert it to a PA 12 months later, the attorney fees can be relatively low, because a lot of the leg-work has already been completed. I don't recall the numbers, but I believe it could be just over $1000.

You can file the PPA yourself in less than a day, and even submit it electronically on-line. The filing fee is low, and I think someone mentioned it above. The PPA (or even a PA) doesn't give you any immediate protection (although it does legally allow you to state "Patent Pending" on your device). However, if/when you do receive a patent, the protection of that patent is retroactive to the date your PPA was filed. That actually gives your PPA fairly strong leverage, because a competitor can't learn what aspects of your design are covered by the PPA (its secret), and if they begin manufacturing a product that infringes on your future patent, they can be held liable for fees to you from the beginning.

12 months later, you have an attorney "convert" your PPA into a full PA. In doing so, they generally just need to reword your PPA and add the appropriate "Claims" describing your PA. Depending on how thorough you were completing your PPA, the legal fees for the conversion can be fairly low. The filing fee is higher, but not outrageous.

The other benefit to the PPA-PA process is that it gives you 12 months to determine if your idea is marketable before spending a lot more money on the PA. In other words, if there is not enough interest or sales of your product in the first 12 months, you can simply allow your PPA to lapse, even if you still wanted to maintain production and sales.
 
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