Existing Conditions in Kitchen, being required to add GFCI for occupancy...

[stlsig]

All:

Good Afternoon, I'm coming to the forum today b/c I have hit a roadblock in searching the internet and calling the contacts I know on this issue. I am the owner of a two family flat in a city that requires occupancy inspections every time I have a new tenant. I've owned the home for 7 years and I've had multiple inspections with nothing more than adding signage here or an extra smoke detector there. The last inspection I had, they said I needed to add a GFCI on a section of counter space in my kitchen, this was news to me! The inspector explained the code and I explained that I have made no changes to the unit and can provide photos to prove this, he offered that i need to discuss this with the Commissioner. Short version of the story is after two months of no answers the deputy commissioner tells me that it "appears" that changes were made and thus require a GFCI or to make the area mobile.

This city uses the 2006 version of the NEC and ICC 2006 codes. I've struggled to find anywhere that list code sections that can detail the following:

1) what designates a counter space as "kitchen" space, thus requiring a GFCI? Could this not be considered a workspace?

2) What section designates that I must perform this work when no changes have been applied for or made?

I appreciate any advice that you all can offer, I'm still stunned that they think that it makes sense to have me run completely new wiring to my first and second floor for two outlets in a home that is all lath and plaster. Worst case I make the counter mobile, but I want some proof that this is what I have to do.

Thanks,

Greg

 

[jumper]

210.8 addresses GFCI and 210.52 addresses kitchen counter tops. As far as being grandfathered, that is a local amendment call.

 

[david luchini]

Worst case I make the counter mobile, but I want some proof that this is what I have to do.

Thanks,

Greg

If you take out that section of fixed counter and make it some type of a rolling desk, you will be required to install an additional outlet in the wall space (assuming there is not already one there below the counter - can't tell from the picture.)

 

[charlie b]

1) what designates a counter space as "kitchen" space, thus requiring a GFCI? Could this not be considered a workspace?

You told us this was in a kitchen. I see an upper cabinet, and I see a lower cabinet, and I see a countertop surface above the lower cabinet. You are there; this is a kitchen countertop, not a workshop counter. The rules require a receptacle on any kitchen countertop that is at least 2 feet wide. Yours is wider than that. The rules require that any such receptacles have GFCI protection. I cannot say why this was not required earlier. I also wonder what your earlier tenants did, when they wanted to plug in a toaster or coffee maker.

2) What section designates that I must perform this work when no changes have been applied for or made?

The so called "Grandfather Rule" (NEC Article 80.9(B), which is now in the unenforceable Annex H) says that an existing installation need not be brought up to current codes, unless the local authority believes that failure to do so would create a hazardous situation. In my local area, there is an additional rule that says that you can only apply the Grandfather Rule if the installation was in compliance with the rules that were in effect when it was initially installed. The requirement for GFCI receptacles in the kitchen has been in effect for a very long time, so I doubt you would be able to avoid adding the receptacles in Washington State.

As to whether making the counter mobile would eliminate the requirement, I cannot say that that would work. It may be a building code, rather than the electrical code, that comes into play in that question.

 

[jumper]

The rules require a receptacle on any kitchen countertop that is at least 2 feet wide. Yours is wider than that.

I thought it was 12".:roll:

210.52(C)(1) Wall Countertop Spaces. A receptacle outlet shall be
installed at each wall countertop space that is 300 mm
(12 in.) or wider. Receptacle outlets shall be installed so
that no point along the wall line is more than 600 mm
(24 in.) measured horizontally from a receptacle outlet in
that space.

 

[stlsig]

If you take out that section of fixed counter and make it some type of a rolling desk, you will be required to install an additional outlet in the wall space (assuming there is not already one there below the counter - can't tell from the picture.)

Thanks for the reply. The wall space has no existing outlet and the comment about the counter being mobile was made by the deputy commissioner as a way around the issue. I appreciated that he took the time to come up with an alternate solution, but as with any old home, I'm still concerned what I might uncover when I go to remove the cabinets.

 

[stlsig]

You told us this was in a kitchen. I see an upper cabinet, and I see a lower cabinet, and I see a countertop surface above the lower cabinet. You are there; this is a kitchen countertop, not a workshop counter. The rules require a receptacle on any kitchen countertop that is at least 2 feet wide. Yours is wider than that. The rules require that any such receptacles have GFCI protection. I cannot say why this was not required earlier. I also wonder what your earlier tenants did, when they wanted to plug in a toaster or coffee maker.
The so called "Grandfather Rule" (NEC Article 80.9(B), which is now in the unenforceable Annex H) says that an existing installation need not be brought up to current codes, unless the local authority believes that failure to do so would create a hazardous situation. In my local area, there is an additional rule that says that you can only apply the Grandfather Rule if the installation was in compliance with the rules that were in effect when it was initially installed. The requirement for GFCI receptacles in the kitchen has been in effect for a very long time, so I doubt you would be able to avoid adding the receptacles in Washington State.

As to whether making the counter mobile would eliminate the requirement, I cannot say that that would work. It may be a building code, rather than the electrical code, that comes into play in that question.

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

What you can't see in the photo is the other counter space that includes a GFCI. That is where the tenants place their coffee maker. Is it in the kitchen? absolutely. What you or I choose to use that counter space for us a matter of interpretation (as is most code). So if I say it's my workstation in the kitchen (which many modern kitchens do have) then maybe that is a way around the issue.

My goal with to post is to see what others have experienced. I know that most likely I will have to fall in line with the decisions of the code officials, but I see no harm in questioning and offering alternative solutions since this is how I purchased the home and the cost of these kinds of changes with dedicated circuits will be quite expensive.

I appreciate your thoughts and advice on the matter, so thank you again.

 

[jumper]

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

Is it in the kitchen? absolutely.[B] What you or I choose to use that counter space for us a matter of interpretation (as is most code)[/B]. So if I say it's my workstation in the kitchen (which many modern kitchens do have) then maybe that is a way around the issue.

NEC and IRC says it is a kitchen counter top, no matter how you use it.

 

[stlsig]

NEC and IRC says it is a kitchen counter top, no matter how you use it.

Gotcha, so any counter top space that is in the kitchen falls under these guidelines then? However the counter top being attached to the wall or a mobile station changes how it is viewed?

I have no issue with the code at all as I'm coming to understand it (thank you all for taking the time to explain it here), just that it's being applied in a situation where no changes have been made.

 

[jumper]

Gotcha, so any counter top space that is in the kitchen falls under these guidelines then? However the counter top being attached to the wall or a mobile station changes how it is viewed?

I have no issue with the code at all as I'm coming to understand it (thank you all for taking the time to explain it here), just that it's being applied in a situation where no changes have been made.

Mobile counter tops/stations/carts are not addressed in the NEC/IRC.

If it is attached and in the kitchen or similar areas, it is.

Grandfather issues are addressed on a local or state level.

 

[hurk27]

I think these local codes that keep popping up like requiring occupancy inspections every time you have a new tenant. so much walks on our constitution it is not funny, code enforcement is a position of an officer of the law, who must follow the same requirements of a police officer, we had one town here that tried this but went much farther to try to make landlords bring up all electric and plumbing to todays codes, our state went right after them after a few filed law suites, here it is only allowed if the purpose of the usage of the building is changed, like a house changed into a store, or a store changes into a restaurant, for a ordinance to be written for the sole purpose of violating the right for probable cause to inspect a property is or should be a invalid ordinance.

This would be like making you bring up a car every time it has a new owner, or a rental place has to have an inspection on a car every time it is rented out.:rant:

If the electrical codes that were enforced at the time of of the building of this building or at the time of any upgrades would be what they need to go by, GFCI's for kitchens were not required until "87" and I don't think they were required for all counter tops until "1996" code change prier it was 6 foot of the sink, I don't remember when the requirement for a counter 12" or wider went into the code, but I do remember a time of only providing one on each side of a sink and not anywhere else so it was changed since I been doing homes, I think sometime in the late "80's" or early "90's" maybe the "93 or 96" code cycle.

Heres the history of GFCI requirements that was posted a while back by someone else:

 

[renosteinke]

There are many issues here, many more than the usual thread.

An 'occupancy inspection.' Now, there's a concept. It's no longer a question of the building department being the AHJ - the 'occupancy inspector' is. Without getting into an ugly furball over personalities and incompatable philosophies, the fact is that they've got you by the balls. Are you actually telling me that you sacrificed two months of rental income to argue over the simple matter of adding a receptacle? Don't you think the tenant just might want to plug something in there? Good heavens, you spent more than that on the paint!

Look at it this way: would you rather complain about what the 'city made me do,' or hear prospective tenants say 'I can really use that plug?'

"Housing" is an amazing topic. When I was house-shopping, it's simply amazing how many homes were presented as 'perfect for an investor like me' .... houses that became completely unsuitable moments later, when I told the realtor I was buying it for ME to live in. Good enough to rent out, but not good enough for me; I missed something there.

Do the math: Renters outnumber landlords. Care to guess which way city hall is going to lean? If the tenants in your city vote, you haven't got a prayer.

Likewise, all this angst (often found in other threads) regarding GFCI receptacles gets tiresome, since we're talking about a $12 device, as opposed to a $1 device. Even if that were the total cost of the job, it's not much money.

Grandfathering. Not a chance with that argument. You system considers every change of tenant to be a new transaction .... it's almost as if they assume the building is new each time. This is no accident; the system is intended to require stead improvements. Again, you're playing against a stacked deck.

As far as the NEC is concerned .... IIRC, 1999 was the year they re-did the kitchen requirements, requiring TWO circuits, and that no point on the counters be more than 24" from a GFCI- protected receptacle. I agree with your city guys: that counter is a lot newer than 1999; the lack of a drip edge and the particular finish both point to an install that's less than five years old.

 

[stlsig]

Renosteinke:

I won't justify your comments in any way.


Everyone else:

I really appreciate you taking the time to reply and help me understand how the code is interpreted and applied. The information has been useful and much more applicable to my situation than any other one I've found on the net.

Thanks,

Greg

 

[renosteinke]

Hurk, you're on target with many of your points.

One thing the OP needs to keep in mind is that his question, and the answers he gets, are going to be read by others who may have similar situations.

The Constitution is a marvelous thing, but often overlooked is that it reserves most powers for the local authority, and the local authority has very few limits placed upon it. That is why I did not take that path ...

Another factor is "commercial activity." For example, I'm sure your mother fixed healthy meals - but that very same kitchen wouldn't come close to passing a health department inspection. No triple sink, no sanitizing solution, no hand wash stations, no floor drains, etc. Fortunately, for mothers everywhere, the healt department inspects only 'commercial' kitchens. My point is that, once you participate in commerce, a whole new opportunity arises for governmental involvement.

Landlords are involved in commerce. That they typically are exempt from most 'business' regulations is not the point. That his community has decided to apply some commercial rules to his business is where the idea of 'occupancy inspections' comes from.

I do not ask the OP to 'justify' my comments. As I read his post, that is the picture I got from his description of his town. If he doesn't like it, he can move- perhaps to another town that isn't so draconian. His fellow citizens have spoken- with their votes.

On a more general, trade-related tack ....

I've done a fair amount of 'property management' work, both directly for owners, and through their management agencies. Clearly, these experiences have colored my opinions. To wit: far too many rental properties are old, run-down, poorly maintained, poorly remodeled hovels that the owners wouldn't let their dogs sleep in. Some of this is the result of simple age; far more is the result of trying to squeeze every nickel out while not putting a penny into the place.

Doubt me? On electrical forums I have posted hundreds of pictures of exceptionally inspired poor electrical work, pictures that rival anything you'll find in the trade magazines. I've even been accused of creating some of those nightmares, just to make a crazy picture. (I'm not that clever!) The vast majority of those pictures came from the rental properties.

Other constants of the rental world: unlicensed 'handymen', work without permits, and remodels that are little more than lipstick & mascara. What's a landlord's favorite whine? "But that costs money!" No kidding. So the endless parade of band-aid repairs goes on, without ever stopping to fix it right.

The simple fact is that we no longer live life the way we did in, say, 1940. What was adequate then is not nearly enough now. That's what the OP's issue is all about, and I can point to a specific example: my place.

You see, my place was built in 1940. 30 amp service and ONE single receptacle in the kitchen. I'm lucky it had even that one. Let's see: do I plug in the refrigerator OR the mixer OR the toaster OR the radio? Ditto for the 12' x 12' living room: one duplex receptacle. Tha bathroom had a single plug in the base of the light over the sink. At least, that's what was there before the complete-gut remodel!

That my place was inadequate seems obvious, yet for 60 years it had been happily passed from tenant to tenant, without so much as a coat of paint being applied to the siding. The last landlord was 'generous' enough to provide the tenant with paint for the inside: ONE gallon. Again, I can't make this stuff up!

However saintly the OP may be, he has to recognize that the city inspector has seen it all, heard it all, and is nobody's fool.

 

[stlsig]

Reno:

Again you've added nothing to the question that was brought up, just over generalizations about how you think government works. If future readers take your statements as fact then they are the ones that will suffer.

As an update, they have agreed to meet with me and discuss grandfathering it in and/or dropping this entirely since I can prove that the counters were there when I purchased the home in 2005 and they can't prove that there wasn't an existing counter there prior. I'd guess the chances of me not having to install a GFCI are about 10%, but that is 10% better than it was before I gained the knowledge I did from everyone here on the forum, well with the exception of Reno.

Thanks again.

 

[readydave8]

Reno:

Again you've added nothing to the question that was brought up, just over generalizations about how you think government works. If future readers take your statements as fact then they are the ones that will suffer.

As an update, they have agreed to meet with me and discuss grandfathering it in and/or dropping this entirely since I can prove that the counters were there when I purchased the home in 2005 and they can't prove that there wasn't an existing counter there prior. I'd guess the chances of me not having to install a GFCI are about 10%, but that is 10% better than it was before I gained the knowledge I did from everyone here on the forum, well with the exception of Reno.

Thanks again.

I don't want to make you angry, but I think you should add the GFCI.

 

[malachi constant]

My two cents. If you remodel a kitchen (such as adding countertops) you should bring the thing up to code as much as possible. If you don't remodel it you shouldn't have to bring it up to code unless it is an explicitly dangerous condition (such as exposed wiring). I don't think the OP remodeled the kitchen. Therefore I don't think they should have to add a receptacle. Ultimately it's up to the AHJ.

To the OP: I don't know what removing the cabinets and putting in a mobile counter would do for you. That would likely be considered a remodel, and you would probably need to bring that part of the kitchen, if not the whole thing, up to code. Under this scenario you would not be required to add receptacles along the countertop, but you would likely need to add a general receptacle at 18", and that would need GFCI protection.

To all who think it's not a big deal - getting a separate circuit from the panel to a second floor kitchen in lathe and plaster walls isn't exactly a $12 item. It's not going to break the bank, but there are certainly better things a person could do with their time and money.

This coming from a guy who owns and lives in a 1923 lathe and plaster house, has lived in it for ten years, has rewired the whole thing EXCEPT for the kitchen because it is too much of a pain to get at the exterior walls where most of the new receptacles would need to go. I don't have a GFI outlet in the kitchen. The fridge is on one circuit and the other two receptacles (one countertop, one wall) are on a second. Microwave, toaster, blender and range ignitor take turns being plugged into the counter receptacle. Mixer, electric skillet and wireless speaker take turns being plugged into a "permanent extension cord" connected to the wall receptacle. Happy to note I finally got enough saved up to do a partial remodel (cabinets, sink, fridge, dishwasher, range hood, lighting). I plan to upgrade the electrical, gas and water while I am at it. Drains seem out of the question - just too buried in covered walls and ceilings. The electrical will be fully up to NEC - probably exceed it by adding an extra SA circuit beyond the two required. More than you cared to know, but I can relate to living in mid-20th century kitchen conditions and waiting for the right time to do something about it.

That said, if I were an AHJ, I wouldn't spring the "you need a new receptacle because we said so" requirement on a landlord unless there were sufficiently dangerous conditions to warrant it. As near as I can tell it isn't warranted. Good luck OP.

 

[Hendrix]

I don't want to make you angry, but I think you should add the GFCI.

Likewise.

 

[M4gery]

I don't want to make you angry, but I think you should add the GFCI.

I think he should add 2X 20A circuits to the kitchen and another to the bathroom. But that's not really answering his question nor helping him out in any way.