Is a GFI required

[acrwc10]

That is exactly my thinking as well.

It always surprises me that the same people who would never in a million years install a larger overcurrent device to 'fix' a tripping breaker don't think twice about removing a GFCI because it trips.:?:huh:

:lol: so true

 

[Steviechia2]

That is exactly my thinking as well.

It always surprises me that the same people who would never in a million years install a larger overcurrent device to 'fix' a tripping breaker don't think twice about removing a GFCI because it trips.:?:huh:

Good point!

 

[templdl]

I appologize for getting in on the tail if this thread but did I miss someone recommending that a single outlet be used and not a duplex? A single outlet only allows the sump ump to be plugged in. Isn't that what is don' in kitchens where GFCIs are required? When a refridgerator outlet is located where GFCI is required then if you instale a single outlet instead of a duplex it doesn't have to be GFCI protected.
I believe it is the duplex that gets you into trouble requiring you to use GFCI protection because they allow you to plug another device into it.

 

[acrwc10]

I appologize for getting in on the tail if this thread but did I miss someone recommending that a single outlet be used and not a duplex? A single outlet only allows the sump ump to be plugged in. Isn't that what is don' in kitchens where GFCIs are required? When a refridgerator outlet is located where GFCI is required then if you instale a single outlet instead of a duplex it doesn't have to be GFCI protected.
I believe it is the duplex that gets you into trouble requiring you to use GFCI protection because they allow you to plug another device into it.

keep in mind, you can unplug something like a sump pump from a single receptacle and plug in what ever you want. That kind of defeats the "no gfi needed" train of thinking. Second if the refridgerator, sump pump, washer, etc, is tripping a gfi it's the appliance, most likely the motor in it, that has failed. One of the members here posted, a couple of years ago, that he would use a megger and check appliances like refers, that had tripped GFCI's and the result was ALL of them failed. It was not the gfi that was the problem but the motors had gone bad, not enough to fail but enough that a gfi would detect it.

I should add, as child I was shocked three times, mildly, that all would have been prevented if gfic proection had been required back then. The first was an exterior extention cord that was defective, ouch. The second was a pool light that was bad, when I put my foot near it i got a numbing "tingle" in my leg, that could have ended very badly for me in so many ways. The third was a laundry room outlet, when I touched my one hand to the grounded washer and the other to a bad iron, it was a right hand to left hand shock that hurt so bad my ears were ringing. So my question would is simple, Why not put on a GFCI recepticle? My supply house charges me $8.00 each for a Leviton GFCI receptacle.

 

[templdl]

keep in mind, you can unplug something like a sump pump from a single receptacle and plug in what ever you want. That kind of defeats the "no gfi needed" train of thinking. Second if the refridgerator, sump pump, washer, etc, is tripping a gfi it's the appliance, most likely the motor in it, that has failed. One of the members here posted, a couple of years ago, that he would use a megger and check appliances like refers, that had tripped GFCI's and the result was ALL of them failed. It was not the gfi that was the problem but the motors had gone bad, not enough to fail but enough that a gfi would detect it.

I should add, as child I was shocked three times, mildly, that all would have been prevented if gfic proection had been required back then. The first was an exterior extention cord that was defective, ouch. The second was a pool light that was bad, when I put my foot near it i got a numbing "tingle" in my leg, that could have ended very badly for me in so many ways. The third was a laundry room outlet, when I touched my one hand to the grounded washer and the other to a bad iron, it was a right hand to left hand shock that hurt so bad my ears were ringing. So my question would is simple, Why not put on a GFCI recepticle? My supply house charges me $8.00 each for a Leviton GFCI receptacle.

I agree with you that an item can be unplugged and the outlet used for something that it was not intended to be used for. But, is it allowable by the NEC to use a single outlet rather than a duplex that would require a GFCI for the original intended use? Does the NEC provide a provision for that?

 

[svh19044]

I appologize for getting in on the tail if this thread but did I miss someone recommending that a single outlet be used and not a duplex? A single outlet only allows the sump ump to be plugged in. Isn't that what is don' in kitchens where GFCIs are required? When a refridgerator outlet is located where GFCI is required then if you instale a single outlet instead of a duplex it doesn't have to be GFCI protected.
I believe it is the duplex that gets you into trouble requiring you to use GFCI protection because they allow you to plug another device into it.

Nobody recommended that because it is not permissible by the NEC. If it's unfinished, it needs to have GFCI protection.

I agree with you that an item can be unplugged and the outlet used for something that it was not intended to be used for. But, is it allowable by the NEC to use a single outlet rather than a duplex that would require a GFCI for the original intended use? Does the NEC provide a provision for that?

It is NOT allowable by NEC to leave out GFCI protection for a single outlet in an unfinished basement.

 

[stickboy1375]

Nobody recommended that because it is not permissible by the NEC. If it's unfinished, it needs to have GFCI protection.




It is NOT allowable by NEC to leave out GFCI protection for a single outlet in an unfinished basement.

Actually in Connecticut, we are still using the 2005 NEC, and it is permissible to to use a single receptacle for an appliance and not provide GFCI protection. 210.8 (A)(5) Exception #2 to (5) 2005 NEC.... Missouri is the only other state I know of that is also on the 2005 edition of the NEC.

 

[svh19044]

Actually in Connecticut, we are still using the 2005 NEC, and it is permissible to to use a single receptacle for an appliance and not provide GFCI protection. 210.8 (A)(5) Exception #2 to (5) 2005 NEC.... Missouri is the only other state I know of that is also on the 2005 edition of the NEC.

Wisconsin, where K_buzz and templdl are located, is 2008 NEC.

I don't know who made the map, but it's certainly helpful in situations like this. :lol: Parts of Arizona, Nevada, and Hawaii, are still on 2005 NEC as well, and I'm sure a couple of municipalities mixed in through other states.

 

[marti smith]

I was just at a friend's house consulting on a basement remodel where I encountered something I don't think I have before.

(We are on the 2008 code cycle)

He is boxing out the sump pump in a 2'x2'x2' area with the top being an access. The sump pump box out is in a finished part of the basement. Does the recept for the sump need to be a GFI? I guess it comes down to...is that 2x2x2 box considered unfinished basement?

FInished: no requirement, unless SOME of the basement is unfinished, then you're stretching it. I'll hit the monkey with a wrench and ask if the placement of the sump pump is considered in a basin. Wouldn't you rather simply be safe than sorry and put in a gfci?

 

[stickboy1375]

Wisconsin, where K_buzz and templdl are located, is 2008 NEC.

I don't know who made the map, but it's certainly helpful in situations like this. :lol: Parts of Arizona, Nevada, and Hawaii, are still on 2005 NEC as well, and I'm sure a couple of municipalities mixed in through other states.

These people do!
http://www.nema.org/stds/fieldreps/NECadoption/implement.cfm

 

[templdl]

FInished: no requirement, unless SOME of the basement is unfinished, then you're stretching it. I'll hit the monkey with a wrench and ask if the placement of the sump pump is considered in a basin. Wouldn't you rather simply be safe than sorry and put in a gfci?

For what GFCIs cost you bet I would install one in a blink of an eye. But I would be concerned about is nuisance tripping because of the motor load and then the crock fills up an floods the basement.
I'm certainly not trying to side step the use of GFCIs.

 

[stickboy1375]

For what GFCIs cost you bet I would install one in a blink of an eye. But I would be concerned about is nuisance tripping because of the motor load and then the crock fills up an floods the basement.
I'm certainly not trying to side step the use of GFCIs.

Lets get this straight, no such thing as a nuisance trip... We need to reeducate ourselves on what has become an urban legend...

 

[K_Buz]

I am concerned about GFI's tripping when it is something as important as a sump pump in a finished basement.

I'll give you two examples:

1) P&S GFI's tripping due to use of two-way radios. We remodeled apartments and found that by pushing the button on the two-way radios the maintenance staff used, it would trip the GFI's. It didn't matter if you were standing in the kitchen or in the hallway outside the apartment. It happened with Leviton GFI's as well. We got around the problem by using Hubbel brand GFI's.

2) Years ago I had a hair clippers. It didn't matter if the clippers were off or on, when you unplugged it, it would trip the GFI.

From these two examples, I have become wary of plugging something into GFI's as important as a sump pump. The technology probably has gotten better and more reliable, but it will be in the back of my mind.

 

[stickboy1375]

I am concerned about GFI's tripping when it is something as important as a sump pump in a finished basement.

I'll give you two examples:

1) P&S GFI's tripping due to use of two-way radios. We remodeled apartments and found that by pushing the button on the two-way radios the maintenance staff used, it would trip the GFI's. It didn't matter if you were standing in the kitchen or in the hallway outside the apartment. It happened with Leviton GFI's as well. We got around the problem by using Hubbel brand GFI's.

2) Years ago I had a hair clippers. It didn't matter if the clippers were off or on, when you unplugged it, it would trip the GFI.

From these two examples, I have become wary of plugging something into GFI's as important as a sump pump. The technology probably has gotten better and more reliable, but it will be in the back of my mind.

The technology is a simple amprobe, it monitors amperage entering and exiting the circuit, nothing more... it really is that simple... I don't buy the radio story at all! and the hair clippers obviously had an internal issue...

 

[K_Buz]

You can not buy the story all you want, but it was replicated time after time in apartment after apartment. Stand in the kitchen, push the button on the radio and reset the two kitchen GFI's.

 

[stickboy1375]

You can not buy the story all you want, but it was replicated time after time in apartment after apartment. Stand in the kitchen, push the button on the radio and reset the two kitchen GFI's.

I just don't buy it. sorry.

 

[K_Buz]

I do not work for that same company anymore, but I will try to get proof for you.

 

[tom baker]

I appologize for getting in on the tail if this thread but did I miss someone recommending that a single outlet be used and not a duplex? A single outlet only allows the sump ump to be plugged in. Isn't that what is don' in kitchens where GFCIs are required? When a refridgerator outlet is located where GFCI is required then if you instale a single outlet instead of a duplex it doesn't have to be GFCI protected.
I believe it is the duplex that gets you into trouble requiring you to use GFCI protection because they allow you to plug another device into it.

The kitchen GFCI requirement is for receptacles serving the counter tops. A single recp is often used so it can be on its own circuit.

 

[templdl]

Lets get this straight, no such thing as a nuisance trip... We need to reeducate ourselves on what has become an urban legend...

I beg to differ. With some loads such as motors it is possible to have a line to neutral imbalance because of the inductive properties of motor even though I would defy you to find a ground issue. Remember, it only has to be instantaneous. It will also be noted that you will never see a GFCI on larger motors. This issue came it a a trade show where the shop officials wanted displays of GFCI which up front makes sense. But, with motors it doesn't work that way. aIt is very easy to fool a device with a 5ma sensitivity.
Yes, lets reeducate ourselves on how little 5ma is or .005a. A 30ma "equipment protection" ground fault device can also nuisance trip when applied of some loads. It would be great if they could be used on all loads but that's not the real world. That's why you don't see more of them used as one would expect.

 

[templdl]

The kitchen GFCI requirement is for receptacles serving the counter tops. A single recp is often used so it can be on its own circuit.

I guess that was my point Tom about the single resp. Thanks. Would a single outlet still be applicable for supplying power to a sump pump if it were located on the ceiling above the crock?